How do young people get their start in life today? - Page 3
Old 03-20-2012, 10:43 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I hear ya. And I agree... I think it IS achieveable too. To be honest, if I could go back 10-15 years I'd have probably moved out west to Fort Mac and just made bank until I had about 300K in my account. Then move to London, ON and buy 2 or 3 townhouses in CASH to live in and rent out. With no mortgage payment and rental income coming in saving would be a breeze if you had even a halfway decent job (40K/yr).
see, it's easy lol
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Old 03-25-2012, 04:26 PM   #42 (permalink)
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this thread is very depressing. i already have almost $35K in student loans. my school ends in September and the career i chose is very well paying (especially for a 22 year old). My job is awesome in way that i have to live where i work and when i come back home, i am going to be staying with my parents. so, plan is to save up for a couple of year and buy a house and pay a shitload in down payment.

and its not just Toronto thats bad, Vancouver is horrible for prices. i live on the north shore and average house price is about a $700K to a mil (for a very average place).
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Old 03-25-2012, 06:17 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Seems like one of the key things is knowing the kind of life you want to lead and understanding which sacrifices need to be made in order to do it.

There are people that I work with that are between my age (24) and 30 who make their 70-100K and have their own places that they seem to be able to afford comfortably.

It really depends on your job too. Some people's line of work might not offer the same financial comfort but offers great fulfillment and happiness. Sometimes it's the exact opposite.

I think it's really about putting a lot of these pieces together until you know what you can do and how you can do it...
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Old 03-25-2012, 10:55 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Seems like one of the key things is knowing the kind of life you want to lead and understanding which sacrifices need to be made in order to do it.

There are people that I work with that are between my age (24) and 30 who make their 70-100K and have their own places that they seem to be able to afford comfortably.

It really depends on your job too. Some people's line of work might not offer the same financial comfort but offers great fulfillment and happiness. Sometimes it's the exact opposite.

I think it's really about putting a lot of these pieces together until you know what you can do and how you can do it...
you know 24 year old's making 70 k a year? wow, you know some mighty people
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Old 03-26-2012, 02:28 AM   #45 (permalink)
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I'm 22 y.o. and still in college but I will be done at the end of April. Graduating in June. I thought of moving to Toronto, but then decided not to. I decided that I will live with my parents and it's only an hour away from Toronto anyway. I'm just trying to be realistic here, in my future line of work, I won't be able to buy a house like after 2-5 years. I'm not even sure if I could buy a house. As bad as I want a house/condo like those Raptors players, it's not gonna happen for me unless I get a lead role on Degrassi or in any other Canadian TV show. Novice actors won't get 98K/yr unlike a recent Commerce grads and work as a Junior Equity Research Analyst.

When I'm done school, I will have to start paying my OSAP!

I have friends who are living in Toronto (Danforth/Greektown, to be exact) and they are actors, dancers and musicians too. They work like 2 jobs while waiting for their "big break" in the industry. Not only they pay for their apts, they also pay for utilities, phone bills, internet, and etc. I know someone who lived in Toronto for a bit, then she can't find an acting gig let alone an agent, and working at a restaurant can't sustain paying monthly rent, OSAP and etc so she had to quit acting and back to her hometown. I haven't heard from her since. It's really sad.

Audition season for film/theatre usually starts in Dec. to Feb. cuz that's when TV shows start looking for new people for their new season. Just because you get an audition doesn't mean you will get the job. Good thing if you get invited for a callback in the film/tv industry though, you get paid usually around $200. As for theatres like Shaw Festival, Mirvish, and Stratford Shakespeare Festival, they will start looking for people in their next season that will usually start in May until November. When you get the job, good cuz they pay really good. But when the season is over, actors are back unemployed.

They say the "real world" is tough, but I'm up for the challenge.

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Old 03-26-2012, 04:00 AM   #46 (permalink)
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you know 24 year old's making 70 k a year? wow, you know some mighty people
it all depends on the sacrifices you are willing to make.
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Old 03-26-2012, 08:46 AM   #47 (permalink)
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you know 24 year old's making 70 k a year? wow, you know some mighty people
I know somebody who graduated with a civil engineering degree, went to a mining town that was in need of a civil engineer and was making around that amount of money at that age. You just have to find the opportunities available, and it also helps to come out with a degree that you can actually get a job with.
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Old 03-26-2012, 12:29 PM   #48 (permalink)
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you know 24 year old's making 70 k a year? wow, you know some mighty people
I know, insane...

But there are plenty of people I know/work with in sales who make a very good living for themselves. It's a tough job for most. Very up and down and quite mentally taxing but the benefit is that there is no real cap on your salary.

If you're good at it and can be responsible with your money, you can set up a very decent life for yourself.

I myself am looking at another opportunity with a significantly larger company where the pay is nearly double what I'm making now...If I didn't have an in with the company, my chances would be very slim to get hired.
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Old 03-26-2012, 01:04 PM   #49 (permalink)
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it's scary.

i bought last year

massive debt for a long time

i'm getting married next year

more debt

we both need new cars within the next two years

even more debt

we want to have a kid in two years

eeek

without any major surprises, we should be fine with payments and saving some money, but life isn't like that at all. i just hope by the time i'm in my 50's and nearing retirement, my payments are just your normal bills and taxes.
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There's going to need to be drastic changes in lifestyle out of necessity anyway. The boomers had a sweet deal, but now there's a need for a new deal, as in a social compact that doesn't include outdated ideas like growth economies and spewing carbon and methane into the atmosphere. I'm sweating right now. It's just fucked up.
That's what I think too LX, the system itself and how we are governed is totally offtrack.

The focus of our economy is on things like the GDP and the stock market indexes but they don't in any real way indicate the health of the citizens in the economy.

If you all go poor and can't eat but I make all the money you did before (+1 dollar) GDP goes up. Is that REALLY a good thing?

It comes down to wealth centralization by the very few and they are exploiting everyone else. We don't have less per person than we had 10 years ago, we have more. We have less because less people are taking more of the pie.

I think the lengths some people go to for money is nothing short of a mental illness and we need to start a campaign to deal with this problem.

Now that I am old enough to understand economics/finance/accounting better, I have no idea how it ever became a "good idea" for people to take on a lot of debt to get things.

Debt is simply borrowing against the future and everyone is too highly leveraged. We can't borrow off the future anymore, which is what the god damn mother fucking baby boomers did. They did all that after borrowing off the previous generations success and hard work.

We've been left holding the bag.

I know some things make sense to go into debt for, education being the best example.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T GO INTO DEBT FOR A HOUSE OR A CAR OR ANYTHING ELSE AT ALL COSTS IF YOU CAN AVOID IT!

You need to wait and be patient until you can afford these things. Unless this item will be a producing asset for you (you MUST have a car to get to work) don't buy them. You pay more for the same thing because you have to pay down all the interest.

If you are locking into a 40 year mortgage to pay for your property you might want to think twice about the shackles you have placed around your life if (when) the market tanks and we can't keep housing prices propped with inappropriately low interest rates and outside foreign investment.

You don't want to get me going on this but there are several problems and all of them point to government and business getting into bed together to max out the GDP and not doing what's best for the people in the country.
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Old 03-26-2012, 01:11 PM   #50 (permalink)
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i think housing is something you pretty much have to take on debt to deal with, and i'd rather have controllable debt than pay rent and have no asset. debt management, and not debt itself, is the missing piece in terms of persional finance.
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Old 03-26-2012, 01:14 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Don't they use GNP to measure living standards since GDP only measures product produced? I'm not too familiar with economics.
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Old 03-26-2012, 01:33 PM   #52 (permalink)
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i think housing is something you pretty much have to take on debt to deal with, and i'd rather have controllable debt than pay rent and have no asset. debt management, and not debt itself, is the missing piece in terms of persional finance.
To me this is the biggest fallacy plaguing our economy now. There are a few things:

1) You are still paying interest and taxes on your mortgage. Those are non-recoverable costs even if you sell the asset.

2) You have to factor in the "cost of capital". Yes you are getting an asset but you could have used that money to invest in other assets.

3) It may be an asset but what is the nature of the asset? This is not a fixed item that will guaranteed bring you a return, you could gain or lose here.

4) What is the nature of the additional risk associated with that return? If the housing market bursts you don't only lose your asset value but you still have to pay for the full value as per your initial purchase price. Unlike the US, you can't walk away from the house and forego the mortgage balance outstanding.

5) You must take into account the hidden costs of owning: Maintenance, Land Transfer Taxes, Agent fees, insurance, legal.

In the past, owning has been a fantastic idea because of the stability and good (whopping from the mid 80's to 2000's) return on the appreciation in value.

Now we have hit a time where real estate prices aren't appreciating. They had to fix the interest rates to prevent people from being unable to keep up with the payments they would owe. They do this to prevent a crash from the huge real estate bubble we are currently under.

Real estate is not going to generate a good enough return to justify the increased risks associated with it (in my mind anyways).

People buy homes in Canada and the US because it is the "(North) American Dream".

These days, I don't see what's so great about it. Personally, I think it's one of those old pieces of advice that everyone gives their kids that was very true a generation or two ago that is no longer the case.
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Old 03-26-2012, 01:41 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Don't they use GNP to measure living standards since GDP only measures product produced? I'm not too familiar with economics.
GDP = Consumption (what is bought by everyone) + Investments (money invested by everyone) + Government Spending (all levels of gov) + Net Exports (Total amount of goods we export vs. import)

This is the example I was using, wealth centralization will not change the raw data. Some would argue that if you have too much centralization it will lower this number and this can be true so I won't argue against that, I just don't think we are at this point.

GNP is pretty much the same thing except it includes foreign assets. So if I buy a house in the cayman islands it is part of my national wealth.

Neither of these account for public utility (happiness) which is a much more important measure to me.

We have made the assumptions when we use these figures to assess our economy that people only like consuming products produces in the economy and therefore when GDP/GNP goes up, happiness does too.

It takes the stance that we are consumption machines and consumption = happiness.

I think this has a devastating effect on our psyches and our environment.
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Old 03-26-2012, 01:55 PM   #54 (permalink)
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To me this is the biggest fallacy plaguing our economy now. There are a few things:

1) You are still paying interest and taxes on your mortgage. Those are non-recoverable costs even if you sell the asset.

2) You have to factor in the "cost of capital". Yes you are getting an asset but you could have used that money to invest in other assets.

3) It may be an asset but what is the nature of the asset? This is not a fixed item that will guaranteed bring you a return, you could gain or lose here.

4) What is the nature of the additional risk associated with that return? If the housing market bursts you don't only lose your asset value but you still have to pay for the full value as per your initial purchase price. Unlike the US, you can't walk away from the house and forego the mortgage balance outstanding.

5) You must take into account the hidden costs of owning: Maintenance, Land Transfer Taxes, Agent fees, insurance, legal.

In the past, owning has been a fantastic idea because of the stability and good (whopping from the mid 80's to 2000's) return on the appreciation in value.

Now we have hit a time where real estate prices aren't appreciating. They had to fix the interest rates to prevent people from being unable to keep up with the payments they would owe. They do this to prevent a crash from the huge real estate bubble we are currently under.

Real estate is not going to generate a good enough return to justify the increased risks associated with it (in my mind anyways).

People buy homes in Canada and the US because it is the "(North) American Dream".

These days, I don't see what's so great about it. Personally, I think it's one of those old pieces of advice that everyone gives their kids that was very true a generation or two ago that is no longer the case.
your points are valid, but there are lots of other issues. we need space - 2 kids, busy lives, family often visiting from across the coutry. we could rent a house, but we wouldn't have the freedom with it that we need. i can transform my house to suit the way my family is changing. i need a play area in teh basement, but will soon need a home office there. after that, maybe a jam space or a dance area, or maybe a rental unit (we bough a house with a separate basement enterance). this is the value of the asset - i can make my house work for me rather than just sitting there absorbing my rent with no abiliity to use it beyond being a domicile.

the issue of interest on the mortgage is what i mean by debt management. we saved enough to pay a large portion of our down payment. the mortgage is low, and the interest has already been paid off (in approx value extended over time). we are paying big chunks of the principle at this point, and its only been a few years.

i also have other assets, including retirement assets. i am not a gambler, and don't really play the stocks or the markets. i have some solid investments, but use the value of my house to leverage other ways to make money.


i don't plan on moving for a long time, so agent fees and land transfer taxes are pretty minimal over the long run. i am, of course, vulnerable to a bursting real estate bubble, but i am also in a position to ride that out, as both spouses are gainfully employed and we aren't relying on the house value to bare the burden of all of our net worth. we are in the position (through careful debt management) to ride out a long and serious shrinking of the real estate market as long as it is not catastrophic. i don't see that as being any riskier than any other investment. if there is a catastrophic collapse, nothing is safe.

in terms of all of the associated costs you mentioned, some are big-ish and important (like insurance), but most are far less expensive, even with the purchase value included, than i would pay to rent a house of this size for the same period of time.

your points have merit, but the risks can be mitigated and it is still a fairly safe investment over the long haul. property values in my neighbourhood have skyrocketed. even if things dropped 25% immediately my house would still be worth more than i paid for it 6 years ago. i believe that a neighbourhood in downtown toronto will have value for a long time. if it doesn't, it will be part of a much bigger collapse that would just as easily jeopardize almost any investment that i could have made.

Last edited by 'trane; 03-26-2012 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 03-26-2012, 02:11 PM   #55 (permalink)
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your points are valid, but there are lots of other issues. we need space - 2 kids, busy lives, family often visiting from across the coutry. we could rent a house, but we wouldn't have the freedom with it that we need. i can transform my house to suit the way my family is changing. i need a play area in teh basement, but will soon need a home office there. after that, maybe a jam space or a dance area, or maybe a rental unit (we bough a house with a separate basement enterance). this is the value of the asset - i can make my house work for me rather than just sitting there absorbing my rent with no abiliity to use it beyond being a domicile.

the issue of interest on the mortgage is what i mean by debt management. we saved enough to pay a large portion of our down payment. the mortgage is low, and the interest has already been paid off (in approx value extended over time). we are paying big chunks of the principle at this point, and its only been a few years.

i also have other assets, including retirement assets. i am not a gambler, and don't really play the stocks or the markets. i have some solid investments, but use the value of my house to leverage other ways to make money.


i don't plan on moving for a long time, so agent fees and land transfer taxes are pretty minimal over the long run. i am, of course, vulnerable to a bursting real estate bubble, but i am also in a position to ride that out, as both spouses are gainfully employed and we aren't relying on the house value to bare the burden of all of our net worth. we are in the position (through careful debt management) to ride out a long and serious shrinking of the real estate market as long as it is not catastrophic. i don't see that as being any riskier than any other investment. if there is a catastrophic collapse, nothing is safe.

in terms of all of the associated costs you mentioned, some are big-ish and important (like insurance), but most are far less expensive, even with the purchase value included, than i would pay to rent a house of this size for the same period of time.

your points have merit, but the risks can be mitigated and it is still a fairly safe investment over the long haul. property values in my neighbourhood have skyrocketed. even if things dropped 25% immediately my house would still be worth more than i paid for it 6 years ago. i believe that a neighbourhood in downtown toronto will have value for a long time. if it doesn't, it will be part of a much bigger collapse that would just as easily jeopardize almost any investment that i could have made.
Of course all circumstances differ but there are a few things in here I would like to point out:

1) "i can transform my house to suit the way my family is changing"- Yes you can do this at a cost to you. You could also simply change rental properties. That way changes aren't permanent and only temporary, this provides you with more not less flexibility. Although it can be inconvenient, so you have to assess your willingness to spend for that convenience.

2) "we saved enough to pay a large portion of our down payment"- Exactly and the bigger that down payment the less risk and interest you face. So if you paid the whole thing off, you wouldn't need to manage the debt at all. What you have said is a factual statement and goes right in line with me telling people not to take on the debt at all.

3) "i also have other assets, including retirement assets"- You are fortunate to be in this position. With what you have stated here you can tell that you are in a relatively privileged position (and good for you for getting there!!) but you don't represent the average property buyer.

4) "i don't plan on moving for a long time, so agent fees and land transfer taxes are pretty minimal over the long run" - True. Typically it is best to buy when you don't plan on moving for a long time. In the past the typical return rate for a house rent vs. buying is 5 years. So after the 5th year the average person might be in a profit position.

5) "even if things dropped 25% immediately my house would still be worth more than i paid for it 6 years ago" - What about people that haven't bought yet? They can't take that hit. You have to understand as a current owner it might not be enough to make you sell but it's not encouraging people to buy.

6) "i believe that a neighbourhood in downtown toronto will have value for a long time. if it doesn't, it will be part of a much bigger collapse that would just as easily jeopardize almost any investment that i could have made" - Well that would be true if you are only invested in the domestic economy. You have options in that regard although you are right, in most senses.

I am actually completely liquid right now, I only have cash holdings at this point in time (a LITTLE stock but very little) because I simply don't have faith that the global economy is on an upswing.
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Old 03-26-2012, 02:25 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Don't they use GNP to measure living standards since GDP only measures product produced? I'm not too familiar with economics.
GNP is everything produced that belongs to a country whereas GDP is everything produced in a country.
so if a canadian company has factories in china that counts towards GNP but not GDP. if an American citizen works in canada that counts towards GDP and not GNP
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Old 03-26-2012, 02:50 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Although it would suck living in Manhattan, at least Americans have a TON of options when it comes to relocating to cheaper cities....

... unless you want move out east (Newfoundland, New Brunswick) where there are NO jobs at all.
MOst ignorant post i have read in a while.

NO JOBs IN NEWFOUNDLAND??

I think you spoke without thinking there pal. Check the statistics. This is not the same province we were 10 years ago.

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Old 03-26-2012, 06:59 PM   #58 (permalink)
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MOst ignorant post i have read in a while.

NO JOBs IN NEWFOUNDLAND??

I think you spoke without thinking there pal. Check the statistics. This is not the same province we were 10 years ago.
Ok... What I said wasn't a slam against Newfoundland (which is a beautiful province IMO). I have a good friend who's living there right now (from Pouch Cove to be specific) who's told me this. She's 25 and has been looking for over a year now.

The current national avg. for unemployment rate is 7.4%.

Newfoundland's is 12.9% which is the highest in the country.

Alberta & Saskatchewan are at 5%.

Ontario is right around the national avg.


Newfoundland's unemployed to job vacancy ratio is also 7.8:1 which is second only to P.E.I. (9.4:1).... the national avg. is 3.3:1 (Alberta & Sask's are under 2:1).


Things may not be as bad as they were 10 years ago but they're certainly not rosy compared to the rest of the country. Not sure why you're getting so upset about this.

Last edited by TORaptor4Ever; 03-26-2012 at 07:11 PM. Reason: added some hard data
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:23 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Lots of tension on this thread, anyhow, I'm glad I live in Toronto. My dad who came from spain about 40 years ago says that Canada is peaceful, good weather except the cold which is nothing, no wars, not a lot of persecution, etc. (I was just paraphrasing). Adding to that, unlike in the USA, there are a few advantages like cheaper education, healthcare (although it should be truly universal but that is a whole other topic),etc.

I just skimmed some earlier things regarding houses, homes, etc. I just wanted to say, land can't grow. Owning a piece of land is a good thing (not in the US though. bazinga, lol just kidding, sorta...)
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Old 03-26-2012, 08:46 PM   #60 (permalink)
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I hear ya. And I agree... I think it IS achieveable too. To be honest, if I could go back 10-15 years I'd have probably moved out west to Fort Mac and just made bank until I had about 300K in my account. Then move to London, ON and buy 2 or 3 townhouses in CASH to live in and rent out. With no mortgage payment and rental income coming in saving would be a breeze if you had even a halfway decent job (40K/yr).
My friend is a wireless technician and he just went up there about 5 months ago. He gets $30/hr and it's his first job in industry. I'm going to have the same qualifications as him once I'm done school which is the end of May. How is it up there?
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