Best Shows on TV? - Page 172
Old 03-12-2014, 07:26 PM   #3421 (permalink)
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Oh i know there was stuff that all tied in at the end, but there was a lot that didn't. I just wish they had cut the first 5 episodes down to fit into two. Establish the characters, keep them true to what was established, then take us forward in time according to the momentum of the narrative. Rust just ended up all over the place instead. His lines read well if you were reading them in a book, but what we saw was a guy that was hardened by his past and could do hard drugs and function at high levels while barely being able to make it to dinner after drinking. He and Marty talked past each other too often, and that wasn't helped by the narration device of each of them being interviewed, which just went on too long to no end as far as the story's development went. Start off with two guys that are largely unlikable for different reasons, move quickly to a difficult but growing dynamic between the two where they are both in conflict with each other and dependent on each other, then move from that dynamic to a redeeming conclusion. That was what was there, but it was like the meat of a whole other series hung from the same bones too often.

And we only saw that glimmer of lightness in Rust's character right at the very end, with no clues as to what motivated him at any point - mostly we saw a guy with lots of reasons to be unmotivated. Pare everything down and i think it gets stronger with a chance to let some light in here and there and both characters become complex instead of confusing.
yeah, that was not so much a problem for me, because of the chronology and the emotional impact of seeing Marty's family. It's my understanding that he had been clean for a while, but then started to crack on his daughter's birthday (when the case starts) and he gets back into drugs when he follows up on a lead at the bar. That situation with Marty's family...you see Rust in the beginning stages of getting fucked up with drugs again....although I could be wrong, he might have been using from the beginning of the show. That's just how I remembered it.

The biker scene...well, that is after he's been on ludes and god knows what else for weeks. The old undercover Rust was back, i think.

Last edited by Bill Haverchuck; 03-12-2014 at 07:46 PM. Reason: Refered to "Rust" as "Marty"
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Old 03-12-2014, 07:29 PM   #3422 (permalink)
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As for the interview style, there is a lot of forshadowing going on in there. Highly detailed. I can totally see how someone might not like it, but the writer had a purpose, I think. It makes for good viewing a second time, when you pick up on more of what they're saying because you now know where the narrative is going.
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Old 03-12-2014, 07:31 PM   #3423 (permalink)
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Side note observation, after Wooderson's Oscar speech (praising God so much) while watching this show, I thought "wow, McConnaughey must be really committed to his craft by taking this role." Marty was like the anti-McConnaughey..... but then during that finale, with the talk about meeting his daughter in the darkness....and then the comment about the "light winning".....very biblical. It all made sense. In the end, probably not so hard to commit to this role.
I know what you mean, and i thought much the same, but the other thing about his speaking of God in that speech was that he turned God into another facet of himself. He finished that first part of his speech by saying that if you have God you have a friend for life, and that is yourself. Which i thought was ok until he went on to then refer to himself as his hero. He is really into himself. Then again, i can't think of anyone who would have more reason to be into himself. He's fucking Matthew McConnaughey!
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Old 03-12-2014, 07:35 PM   #3424 (permalink)
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And we only saw that glimmer of lightness in Rust's character right at the very end, with no clues as to what motivated him at any point - mostly we saw a guy with lots of reasons to be unmotivated.
Pare everything down and i think it gets stronger, with a chance to let some light and ambiguity in here and there and both characters become complex instead of confusing. With the ability to convey so much in a few simple lines through the whole show, i think it strayed from its strength by elongating everything.
well, I sort of disagree. I think Rust seemed like a different person around Marty's family. Probably why it was so hard for him to go there in the first place. Initially, he was totally cool with Marty's plan to have him leave after they call another detective to pick him up, but then Rust makes an effort to sober up and wants to keep eating dinner with Marty's family. He seems comfortable around Marty's wife and kids. Like a "normal" person.

Then at the end, he feels his daughter's love stronger than before, as he said. I feel like that put him in a better place.

Maybe I'm trying too hard to reconcile it all, though.
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Old 03-12-2014, 07:37 PM   #3425 (permalink)
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He is really into himself. Then again, i can't think of anyone who would have more reason to be into himself. He's fucking Matthew McConnaughey!
For sure!

I mean, if I was Matty McC, I'd probably, you know, walk around with my shirt off every chance I got! Maybe even INSIST on scenes with me wearing a wifebeater!
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Old 03-12-2014, 07:48 PM   #3426 (permalink)
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As for the interview style, there is a lot of forshadowing going on in there. Highly detailed. I can totally see how someone might not like it, but the writer had a purpose, I think. It makes for good viewing a second time, when you pick up on more of what they're saying because you now know where the narrative is going.
I liked it, but it appeared to be an ongoing device and then wasn't. And the two black cops really were ultimately superfluous. I think it was good as a way into the chronology and for foreshadowing, but should have allowed for the meat of the story in the present tense to come into play sooner.

The Rust in the interview did not give me any sense of why he would bother coming back to the case or even take such risks going after Ledoux. I never got why he talked people into killing themselves. Or why anyone would confess or why they would listen to him and kill themselves like automatons. And the Rust in the interviews didn't really match up with the Rust that had clear motivations within the context of a story after that.

There was a place for the jibber jabber, but it needed to be cut way back to allow for a dynamic to develop between the two main characters within a narrative that rolls along on it's own accord. Marty's family too often does nothing to move the narrative along, and the interviews sort of got it all stuck in the mud, though i suspect they just needed to fill out a full 8 episodes.
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Old 03-12-2014, 07:58 PM   #3427 (permalink)
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well, I sort of disagree. I think Rust seemed like a different person around Marty's family. Probably why it was so hard for him to go there in the first place. Initially, he was totally cool with Marty's plan to have him leave after they call another detective to pick him up, but then Rust makes an effort to sober up and wants to keep eating dinner with Marty's family. He seems comfortable around Marty's wife and kids. Like a "normal" person.

Then at the end, he feels his daughter's love stronger than before, as he said. I feel like that put him in a better place.

Maybe I'm trying too hard to reconcile it all, though.
Maybe that was just where i didn't connect. I never saw where he developed that comfort level. If i had it would have changed a lot for me. The one light moment was where Marty went off on Rust for mowing HIS lawn. But it fell a bit flat for me, because i couldn't get any sense why he would be there mowing the lawn. I guess if i had seen his need to regain a sense of family, but i just tended to see a guy that had moved past that and into nihilistic tendencies. If there was less confusion and a tighter structure in the first five episodes i would have been reeled in completely.
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Old 03-12-2014, 08:11 PM   #3428 (permalink)
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We should start a True Detective thread!
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Old 03-12-2014, 08:14 PM   #3429 (permalink)
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We should start a True Detective thread!
Maybe next season, if there is one.
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Old 03-12-2014, 08:19 PM   #3430 (permalink)
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Maybe next season, if there is one.
I meant to talk about this season so that there aren't any more spoilers in here.

Unnecessary post Jeff.
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Old 03-12-2014, 08:19 PM   #3431 (permalink)
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I meant to talk about this season so that there aren't any more spoilers in here.

Unnecessary post Jeff.
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Old 03-12-2014, 09:48 PM   #3432 (permalink)
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Really enjoyed the series as a whole. MM is one of my favourite actors, and Woody is great in a lot of things.

Not going to multi quote and put a lot of work into my post, so I'll just talk off of some things you guys have said.

I'm not sure where they were going with certain things like Marty's daughter drawing the pictures/playing with the dolls/getting gangbanged. I originally thought she'd be involved in the cult but it looks like that was just a curve ball thrown at us.

My only qualm with the show was that they made it about a cult. I think that was unnecessary and took away from the story. If they had of just gone with Reggie Ledoux and his partner being in cahoots with Eerol, it would have been better. I mean, you bring the cult in and you have the whole church thing with molesting, the guy that they took on the boat, etc. Just a lot of filler IMO.

More to add, when I think of it later..

I'm really excited to hear more about the 2nd season. I think it's a given that we'll see it. The writer ws quoted saying it will be about " Hard women, bad men, and the secret occult history of the U.S. transportation system"

Not sure what that means, but..okay.
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Old 03-12-2014, 10:34 PM   #3433 (permalink)
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Jeff's back.
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Old 03-12-2014, 10:41 PM   #3434 (permalink)
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The Rust in the interview did not give me any sense of why he would bother coming back to the case or even take such risks going after Ledoux. I never got why he talked people into killing themselves. Or why anyone would confess or why they would listen to him and kill themselves like automatons. And the Rust in the interviews didn't really match up with the Rust that had clear motivations within the context of a story after that.
I know he made multiple people confess, and I can see how that might have seemed like a stretch in at least one case, but I only remember him trying to talk that one mother into killing herself. I just assumed that was to show how much he is disgusted by people who hurt kids. Maybe it spoke to his motivation too, because I always assumed that was what drove this guy. His obsession with killers and stoping them, especially those who hurt kids.

Also, whether intentional or not, it was a good way of showing how Rust can play a "role". He does that a lot in the show. He frequently flips switches, which seems consistent with his backstory as an undercover cop who has to act like someone else. That behaviour is also consistent with a guy who is willing to do a coverup at the Ledoux shooting.

As for the inconsistency in the interviews, well, that's sort of what you'd expect. Because he doesn't trust the cops. Even back in the 90s, when they tried to start a taskforce and take his case, he was starting to think there was a conspiracy. So, again, he seems to be playing a role in the interviews. So is Marty, to an extent. And that becomes clearer as things go on. The interviews are devices to tell a 15 year narrative, but what they say to the cops in the interview shots is RARELY consistent with what actually happens when we are taken back in the past, like leaving out the adultry, and true reasons for quiting and all that. Those ommissions make it clear that they are not telling the cops the truth about everything. Those interviews should not be taken as honest portrayals of their characters and their motivations.

Put antoher way... I wouldn't expect the motivations of the characters to appear entirely consistent either, since they are not "being themselves", they are playing roles within the shows reality. They're intentionally trying to tell the story to the black cops differently than it really happened.
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Old 03-12-2014, 10:42 PM   #3435 (permalink)
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the more I think about it, bjjs' question/comment about Childress saying "take off your mask" or something, is kinda interesting. Because this show involves a lot of characters playing roles and hiding things about themselves.
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Old 03-12-2014, 10:57 PM   #3436 (permalink)
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It wasn't the story he told in the interviews, but rather his world legitimate weariness, which didn't jibe with any motivation to take up a case. Once there appeared to be a conspiracy that needed to be fought against, you could see where the motivation came from. I think it would have been nice to have that element in the show much sooner. The interviews only really tell the narrative of what took place in 1995, and then a small part of 2002. For me the show really takes off after 1995. I thought the shooting of Ledoux was not really sold convincingly as a natural reaction. Ultimately i think the back and forth in the interviews hurt the momentum of the narrative, although at the point of the shooting it was a little bit interesting as to how they veered from the truth. I just think we needed to see Ledoux as far more evil first hand before getting a sense of such an out of control reaction from a professional that is trained to be in control. Marty ended up acting not entirely unlike Ginger. It seemed like more of a shoot 'em up game than a drama at that point.

And didn't Rust call the guy who said he saw the yellow king just before that guy killed himself?
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Old 03-13-2014, 01:58 AM   #3437 (permalink)
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And didn't Rust call the guy who said he saw the yellow king just before that guy killed himself?
Not sure.
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Old 03-13-2014, 08:09 AM   #3438 (permalink)
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Could be SPOILERS here.

I kept thinking about this show last night. It certainly does provoke a good deal of thought. That whole deal with calling Rust little priest and asking him to take off his mask, i thought implied that he was maybe part of the animal mask cult. I thought his own involvement was hinted at when he took up the case on his own. He suddenly revisited a bunch of crime sites, and it did seem that he had a hand in having the prisoner with information kill himself. There was also the comment by Ledoux's sidekick about the evil leaking out from the edges of his eyes. Maybe the mumbled light is winning line was entirely cynical. Maybe his whole investigation was done to keep himself hidden. That would turn around my issues with the confusion a fair bit. It makes everything pretty brilliant. Still think there was too much filler though.
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Old 03-13-2014, 11:37 AM   #3439 (permalink)
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Time is a flat circle...

Check out this clip. Note that Mcconaughey is cutting grass, the name of the lady in the clip, the red truck and the type of unsolved mystery.

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Old 03-13-2014, 02:11 PM   #3440 (permalink)
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Yeah Spoilers.

They don't know who called the guy in the jail cell, it was traced back to a pay-phone in the middle of a field, but it was right after this that it was made obvious that Rust was a suspect of the new detectives. And he flipped out on the guy for calling him yellow king so you can suspect that Rust has some motivation since this guy knows secrets about Rust....but did that really happen.

A lot that happens around Rust is a big mystery, and I wonder how much of that are things that didn't actually happen, except in Rust's own head. He accidentally killed his daughter, he did copious amounts of hard drugs under cover, and has seen crimes first hand that would be pretty traumatic for your average person. As somebody who externally appears to have high moral values, it's fair to think he has a lot of self doubt as far as reconciling that with his checkered past. Add in the drug use and there is a formula for hallucinations. Didn't he say he spent time in a psych ward?

There were many things said to Rust out of earshot of other characters. "Take of your mask", "come young acolyte/priest". The interrogations. Ledoux said something to him about "dreaming this would happen" or "being down this road before", or "this will happen again" before Woody came out and shot him.

Many of the mysterious, ominous lines were said for Rust's ears only.

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