Wiggins debut - Page 2
Old 10-06-2013, 08:08 PM   #21 (permalink)
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No actually I don't want the Raptors to fail, I want the Raptors to succeed. I just don't think the current core is good enough to win it all one day, go to the finals or even go to the conference finals. Money (ie. current salaries and salary for next year) is also an issue right now with the squad and two key players and contracts which need to be resolved soon - KL and RG. I want to see a championship squad or at least contender out there on the court one day. I don't want to see playoffs or just winning 1 round as the ceiling to my fav basketball team. We both want the team to succeed but we prefer different paths and we prefer different levels of success. Other teams will get rid of unwanted contracts and look to actively acquire assets in preparation for apparently the best draft in years. Boston is already doing this. That's how they were able to get that championship there - through asset collection. Other teams are preparing. In 2007 the raps won a division title for the first time and got 3rd in a brutally weak EC. A pretty fair amount of teams regrouped and did well in the summer in the draft and trades while the raps remained stagnant for the most part.
I know the whole spiel. Draft of a lifetime yadda yadda.

Why do you say we want different levels of success? That's a little ridiculous isn't it? We both would love to see a championship obviously. You seem to think it's impossible to get there unless they fail first. Fail really badly. If you are going to deny that then let's just forget this discussion ever started and move on. And you seem obsessively assured that your path is correct, when the truth is that your draft of a lifetime assures nothing. I happen to think there are many paths available over time, and that a championship is not going to be easy to come by, but they'll have a much better shot if they develop the right culture and build upon the best principles while developing the talent that is already here. I don't expect stagnancy. BC is not here. And the biggest piece of rotting flesh that he offered us has been tossed overboard. It is in fact a pretty good time to shout LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!!!!!!!!!, but you will not right? And there is a fair bit of irony in that. I'm going to enjoy that while I'm cheering my team on and let whatever happens happen. Hell, I'm in a no lose position, because even if I'm disappointed in the results, the clarity will be there, the moves will be made, and they may get more than one pick in that duper special draft. It's a pretty bright and cheery situation all-around. Talk of stagnation just does not compute. You are stuck in the past and forcing yourself to only look to some mystical future, when you should be looking at the right here and now and finding at least a few reasons to shout out your damn name.
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Old 10-06-2013, 08:10 PM   #22 (permalink)
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+1000000000

Thank you.

But hey, you and me both want the Raptors to fail apparently
Only a billion? I must be getting through to you a bit.
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Old 10-06-2013, 09:00 PM   #23 (permalink)
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No actually I don't want the Raptors to fail, I want the Raptors to succeed. I just don't think the current core is good enough to win it all one day, go to the finals or even go to the conference finals. Money (ie. current salaries and salary for next year) is also an issue right now with the squad and two key players and contracts which need to be resolved soon - KL and RG. I want to see a championship squad or at least contender out there on the court one day. I don't want to see playoffs or just winning 1 round as the ceiling to my fav basketball team. We both want the team to succeed but we prefer different paths and we prefer different levels of success. Other teams will get rid of unwanted contracts and look to actively acquire assets in preparation for apparently the best draft in years. Boston is already doing this. That's how they were able to get that championship there - through asset collection. Other teams are preparing. In 2007 the raps won a division title for the first time and got 3rd in a brutally weak EC. A pretty fair amount of teams regrouped and did well in the summer in the draft and trades while the raps remained stagnant for the most part.
Do you know how many teams struggle for years with a decent core before they're able to break through and make a conference finals or finals? You need to walk before you can run. Contrary to popular belief a 1st round playoff loss WOULD be a resounding success at this point... because it'd mean that we FINALLY made it back to the post-season! THEN expectations can be bumped up.
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Old 10-06-2013, 10:26 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I know the whole spiel. Draft of a lifetime yadda yadda.

Why do you say we want different levels of success? That's a little ridiculous isn't it? We both would love to see a championship obviously. You seem to think it's impossible to get there unless they fail first. Fail really badly. If you are going to deny that then let's just forget this discussion ever started and move on. And you seem obsessively assured that your path is correct, when the truth is that your draft of a lifetime assures nothing. I happen to think there are many paths available over time, and that a championship is not going to be easy to come by, but they'll have a much better shot if they develop the right culture and build upon the best principles while developing the talent that is already here. I don't expect stagnancy. BC is not here. And the biggest piece of rotting flesh that he offered us has been tossed overboard. It is in fact a pretty good time to shout LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!!!!!!!!!, but you will not right? And there is a fair bit of irony in that. I'm going to enjoy that while I'm cheering my team on and let whatever happens happen. Hell, I'm in a no lose position, because even if I'm disappointed in the results, the clarity will be there, the moves will be made, and they may get more than one pick in that duper special draft. It's a pretty bright and cheery situation all-around. Talk of stagnation just does not compute. You are stuck in the past and forcing yourself to only look to some mystical future, when you should be looking at the right here and now and finding at least a few reasons to shout out your damn name.
I think a very very good pick would be an excellent addition to the roster. There are a number of players in that draft who could be starters on this squad and possibly franchise players. The thing I like about the draft. You can flip the pick for something else if need be. Cheap, young, productive players - like JV who is really the only player that every fan wouldn't deal barring a phenomenal deal. You're happy - good for you. I'm also happy to agree - like Bargs being gone. I think there are issues which remain like BC's remnants (KL+RG contracts, the DD extension arguably, LF) and other factors (like a good draft - remember the last one where the raps got arguably the best player that's ever been on the squad) that not all is as good as you claim. I'll always cheer on my team - don't know why you think otherwise. I don't like to gloss over things or overhype the team I support. I try to be as objective and realistic as possible regarding the team.
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Old 10-06-2013, 10:55 PM   #25 (permalink)
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You don't need to gloss over anything to hope they get better. You are hoping to see them get much worse this season. And yet you are going to cheer them on? Sarcastically? This is going beyond irony.

I guess what you are hoping for ultimately, is for the GM to completely trash the team so that you can cheer a terrifyingly bad team playing horrible basketball, all the while knowing you are cheering for a team that cannot possibly win on most nights. That's the only way I can wrap my head around it. And that doesn't sound worthy of more than one exclamation mark all the same.

With the former ownership, I could see your point of view a little more clearly, but I would also probably pretty much give up on the team. With this ownership working under very different auspices, I don't see the point of limiting the means of improvement in your mind and thinking stagnancy is the only other option.

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Old 10-06-2013, 11:34 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I hope we can be fun to watch and make the playoffs. It was hard enough to watch in the last few years. I hope MU can tweak the team a bit in order to get better, but I don't think is the our best option. If we start the season with 4-16 for sure major changes will follow, but we are much better than that.
MU will address Klow contract situation and Rudy's too. I don't think you can put a number on their salary as of yet before we see what we got in them.
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Old 10-07-2013, 12:26 AM   #27 (permalink)
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You don't need to gloss over anything to hope they get better. You are hoping to see them get much worse this season. And yet you are going to cheer them on? Sarcastically? This is going beyond irony.

I guess what you are hoping for ultimately, is for the GM to completely trash the team so that you can cheer a terrifyingly bad team playing horrible basketball, all the while knowing you are cheering for a team that cannot possibly win on most nights. That's the only way I can wrap my head around it. And that doesn't sound worthy of more than one exclamation mark all the same.

With the former ownership, I could see your point of view a little more clearly, but I would also probably pretty much give up on the team. With this ownership working under very different auspices, I don't see the point of limiting the means of improvement in your mind and thinking stagnancy is the only other option.
Don't get me wrong I hope the raps can do well with this core, etc. However, what I think and hope are two different things.

Me and others don't want to be on a "treadmill" of any kind and the roster as constructed might lead to such a situation. I can take positives out of a negative situation - like JV as the brightest beacon on the team and the potential of being a perennial all star, especially considering his age.

Anywho we have different view points.

Out of curiosity, are you a leafs fan?

On a side note, you would get utterly destroyed on the other board I'm on.
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Old 10-07-2013, 12:34 AM   #28 (permalink)
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MU will address Klow contract situation and Rudy's too. I don't think you can put a number on their salary as of yet before we see what we got in them.
Easier said than done. KLow has to be dealt or extended. Can't just lose him in FA or nothing. RG is an interesting case with that PO of his for next year. Here, this might help a few on here who are not aware - ShamSports.com: Toronto Raptors salary information

So, yeah, those two things have to be resolved this season. How MU handles that will be paramount to his tenure here as GM and will show the direction he wants to take.
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:01 AM   #29 (permalink)
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I can't believe people are so deluded and actually believe that this core is good enough to ever be able to be better than a team that gets swept in the first round of the playoffs.. Aren't you people tired of mediocrity? Aren't you people tired of seasons like the last one?

So many teams are going to be crap net season, making the playoffs won't be too hard, but that's all we're going to do. Winning now just for the sake of it, is nice and all but what's going to happen in 2 years when we have no cap room and an average at best core?
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:11 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Wiggins is going for a Hasheem Thabeet haircut. Oh wait, Wiggins isn't the topic here, my bad.
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:13 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Wiggins is going for a Hasheem Thabeet haircut. Oh wait, Wiggins isn't the topic here, my bad.
Ugh I know, I mentioned it in another thread. He needs to cut that shit his hair is so goddamn nappy.
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:46 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Do you know how many teams struggle for years with a decent core before they're able to break through and make a conference finals or finals? You need to walk before you can run. Contrary to popular belief a 1st round playoff loss WOULD be a resounding success at this point... because it'd mean that we FINALLY made it back to the post-season! THEN expectations can be bumped up.
I gotta disagree here. I do believe it would be beneficial to make the playoffs and exit in the first round if you were a team like okc a couple years back, with young developing talent that could eventually become a contender. Here, we have a lot of 6+ year vets who imo they are what they are at this point.
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Old 10-07-2013, 08:07 AM   #33 (permalink)
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I gotta disagree here. I do believe it would be beneficial to make the playoffs and exit in the first round if you were a team like okc a couple years back, with young developing talent that could eventually become a contender. Here, we have a lot of 6+ year vets who imo they are what they are at this point.
+1000000

Yup. Except for JV.
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Old 10-07-2013, 08:09 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I can't believe people are so deluded and actually believe that this core is good enough to ever be able to be better than a team that gets swept in the first round of the playoffs.. Aren't you people tired of mediocrity? Aren't you people tired of seasons like the last one?

So many teams are going to be crap net season, making the playoffs won't be too hard, but that's all we're going to do. Winning now just for the sake of it, is nice and all but what's going to happen in 2 years when we have no cap room and an average at best core?
+1

But dude, none of those teams will improve after next season
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Old 10-07-2013, 11:42 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Don't get me wrong I hope the raps can do well with this core, etc. However, what I think and hope are two different things.

Me and others don't want to be on a "treadmill" of any kind and the roster as constructed might lead to such a situation. I can take positives out of a negative situation - like JV as the brightest beacon on the team and the potential of being a perennial all star, especially considering his age.

Anywho we have different view points.

Out of curiosity, are you a leafs fan?

On a side note, you would get utterly destroyed on the other board I'm on.
Utterly destroyed huh? See - that is my main prerogative in even making an argument. If it was just you and Kool-Aid I'd just let it go. But there are a bunch of people who want see this team sucking very badly, and somehow feel justified in doing so. And that's just shitty, plain and simple.

If this team can play top ten defense then there is no treadmill. There has yet to be a Raptor team that committed to playing strong defense for 82 games. If this team can do that then the sum will be much greater than the parts of the whole. The value of assets here will go up, and the possibilities of creating a very strong core here over the next few years, will improve greatly. Players want to come to a team where there is an identity and a commitment to winning. If the current roster helps to make a bit of a jump to get there, then they should get a ton of fan support, and not a bunch of people whining about the need to land top 5 in the draft. If there is truly something to build on that is not reflected in the reactions of fans and a media influenced by the fans, it could mess up a good thing when there should be positive reinforcement. But stick with the intellectual dishonesty of suggesting what you hope and what you think are two different things.

Now if this team fails to commit to defense fully, then it will be up to MU to take action to get better pieces in place, and getting draft picks will undoubtedly be a route he will pursuit, but values of assets will drop, and a true sense of stagnancy could settle in pretty quickly at that point. Getting talent in the draft will help in that case, but with no foundation in place it could just lead to the kind of wheel spinning we've witnessed for too long.

It's wonderful that you can take positives out of negatives, but this team is at a point where excluding the possibility of a net positive effect is just a shitty thing to do. You will not be cheering for them if you insist on such a position. There is not a single player in the starting lineup that cannot further improve upon their play. If they don't then fuck them. Sure. But to say they are what they are at this point is to say fuck them before they even get the chance. And it's not the realistic position you seem to think. Are you really going to tell me that Amir has no chance of getting better? Or that Demar has no chance of getting better? Or that Lowry simply cannot prove to be a better player this season? Or that Rudy positively cannot improve his game within a different framework than he's ever had before, and prove to be a pretty good fit for now? Or is JV your only beacon which you all the same preclude from future true greatness with no real basis to do so? That's just crazy. There are real possibilities in play. Let's see which play out and go from there, pushing ownership to do everything it takes to continue to improve, and cheering a team that can achieve a great deal with the right kind of team play, instead of foregoing all that and obsessively focussing on nothing but improving through new talent that will have no realistic guarantees of ever being able to play as a team.

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Old 10-07-2013, 12:10 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Easier said than done. KLow has to be dealt or extended. Can't just lose him in FA or nothing. RG is an interesting case with that PO of his for next year. Here, this might help a few on here who are not aware - ShamSports.com: Toronto Raptors salary information

So, yeah, those two things have to be resolved this season. How MU handles that will be paramount to his tenure here as GM and will show the direction he wants to take.
Gay's PO is basically a wildcard. For that kind of money to opt out will be a risk for him. I am fully aware of Lowry's situation. MU is not going to let him expire, but at this point he hasn't shown that he is well deserved an extension and a fat contract. If we sign a 4th point guard it should give us a rough idea where we are heading with him.
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Old 10-07-2013, 12:13 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I'm a huge believer of acquiring talent trough the draft (especially this years draft).
After Bosh left it was fairly easy to cheer for tanking, because team was terrible and there was no real direction or hope, other than draft. But this year we do have a good team and the players finally have passion to prove that we are playoff worthy. There is identity and some light in the end of the tunnel. I really really really want those lottery picks, but after watching interviews with MU and the players I feel like this bunch deserves at least a chance. If we are playing like crap 15-20 games in the season I will be the first one screaming to blow it up. And it seems like that's what MU is thinking too.
So for now I'm going to sit back and enjoy
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Old 10-07-2013, 01:13 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Utterly destroyed huh? See - that is my main prerogative in even making an argument. If it was just you and Kool-Aid I'd just let it go. But there are a bunch of people who want see this team sucking very badly, and somehow feel justified in doing so. And that's just shitty, plain and simple.

If this team can play top ten defense then there is no treadmill. There has yet to be a Raptor team that committed to playing strong defense for 82 games. If this team can do that then the sum will be much greater than the parts of the whole. The value of assets here will go up, and the possibilities of creating a very strong core here over the next few years, will improve greatly. Players want to come to a team where there is an identity and a commitment to winning. If the current roster helps to make a bit of a jump to get there, then they should get a ton of fan support, and not a bunch of people whining about the need to land top 5 in the draft. If there is truly something to build on that is not reflected in the reactions of fans and a media influenced by the fans, it could mess up a good thing when there should be positive reinforcement. But stick with the intellectual dishonesty of suggesting what you hope and what you think are two different things.

Now if this team fails to commit to defense fully, then it will be up to MU to take action to get better pieces in place, and getting draft picks will undoubtedly be a route he will pursuit, but values of assets will drop, and a true sense of stagnancy could settle in pretty quickly at that point. Getting talent in the draft will help in that case, but with no foundation in place it could just lead to the kind of wheel spinning we've witnessed for too long.

It's wonderful that you can take positives out of negatives, but this team is at a point where excluding the possibility of a net positive effect is just a shitty thing to do. You will not be cheering for them if you insist on such a position. There is not a single player in the starting lineup that cannot further improve upon their play. If they don't then fuck them. Sure. But to say they are what they are at this point is to say fuck them before they even get the chance. And it's not the realistic position you seem to think. Are you really going to tell me that Amir has no chance of getting better? Or that Demar has no chance of getting better? Or that Lowry simply cannot prove to be a better player this season? Or that Rudy positively cannot improve his game within a different framework than he's ever had before, and prove to be a pretty good fit for now? Or is JV your only beacon which you all the same preclude from future true greatness with no real basis to do so? That's just crazy. There are real possibilities in play. Let's see which play out and go from there, pushing ownership to do everything it takes to continue to improve, and cheering a team that can achieve a great deal with the right kind of team play, instead of foregoing all that and obsessively focussing on nothing but improving through new talent that will have no realistic guarantees of ever being able to play as a team.
Yes, there are a bunch of people who want the team do things the right way - ie. build through the draft, don't overspend on players when it's not needed (LF, DD extension), have some sort of financial flexibility and have more than just one young player who you know will make a remarkable improvement. Also, people keep referring to the raps as INDY. The raps are not Indy. Main difference, Indy had much much better financials and have a beast of a young stud in George.

If - that's a pretty big if indeed.

Oh yes, all those players can indeed improve but it is no where near as big as the improvement that JV will be able to improve upon given his age and play. RG and KL are 27. At this point in time you know more or less what you're getting. DD has a little bit more hope than those two given his age but even then there's not a great chance he'll make that giant jump.
I have faith that MU won't give 14/mill per year like BC would. I also have faith that MU will look at players like DD objectively.


You keep mentioning the play, etc. It's not just about the play, etc. - it's about financials as well which you ignore.

You've taken a nice let's wait and see approach which in the end is what we will all (including MU) end up doing after about 20 games or so. Now, if the team is below 500 (or above) you have a rough indicator of what MU will do. The issue is what about .500 and the team is 9th or 8th. Do you continue to hope on the team or do you take some action to either improve the team immediately or in the long run. Or do you wait until the deadline?

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Old 10-07-2013, 01:15 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Gay's PO is basically a wildcard. For that kind of money to opt out will be a risk for him. I am fully aware of Lowry's situation. MU is not going to let him expire, but at this point he hasn't shown that he is well deserved an extension and a fat contract. If we sign a 4th point guard it should give us a rough idea where we are heading with him.
Indeed. It is a lot of money to opt out but you never know what will happen.

True. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.
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Old 10-09-2013, 11:06 AM   #40 (permalink)
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