Who are the superstars? - Page 2
Old 07-24-2013, 10:32 AM   #21 (permalink)
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well, it's unlikely to happen coz superstars are usually in good teams, but yeah! An individual in a team game can be as good as they come but if their team is no good the team won't be successful. Did I say team enough there!?

just did a quick look, Bryant didn't lead lakers to playoffs in 04-05, and played 66 reg season games. I'm sure people will come back with some reasons for this, but interesting.
Fair point, but this is why I'm reluctant to call a player a superstar based on one year's production. It's fairly obvious Kobe already was a superstar before that horrible season so one season won't really change that.

Kevin Love however has been putting up superstar numbers for several years now but still hasn't led his team to the promised land. Superstar or not?
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Old 07-24-2013, 10:36 AM   #22 (permalink)
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yep, fair point by you too,

like I said before, you're probably on the right track when you say there shouldn't be too many players dubbed superstars.

but the word is also difficult. Melo's playoff record is poor, but he's certainly a superstar coz of his rep. But, I would MUCH rather have love on my team than melo.
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Old 07-24-2013, 10:50 AM   #23 (permalink)
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yep, fair point by you too,

like I said before, you're probably on the right track when you say there shouldn't be too many players dubbed superstars.

but the word is also difficult. Melo's playoff record is poor, but he's certainly a superstar coz of his rep. But, I would MUCH rather have love on my team than melo.
Most def. Altough his inability to stay healthy remains a concern. Which is also a factor in being a superstar or not. Are you a superstar if you can't stay injury free and carry your team to the playoffs? Love undeniably has insane skills, but we don't get to see them enough...

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Old 07-24-2013, 10:53 AM   #24 (permalink)
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I liked Haverchuck's post but I agree with all this. Rondo might be the greatest floor general in his generation of pgs and can dominate the game in many ways that some scoring pgs can't.

I also think Haver was giving to much credit to Harden. Houston had a solid supporting cast, and imo Kevin McHale did a fantastic job with that team. It was hardly just Harden carrying them on their shoulders.

Harden is right there with Curry - they're the best of the rest but they'll never be good enough to outplay Lebron/Durant/Kobe/Melo.

There are your four superstars. Only 4.
There's no way in hell that Melo deserves to be in that group. I would put Curry (who's a FAR better shooter and passer) & Harden before him without hesitation. Probably CP3 and Kyrie too (and a healthy Rose).

Melo's rapidly becoming the most overrated star in the league.... if he wasn't already.
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Old 07-24-2013, 10:54 AM   #25 (permalink)
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So a player can be a superstar yet fail to lead his team to the playoffs?
Well, Kobe, Kareem and Oscar Robertson say hello :cookie:
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:00 AM   #26 (permalink)
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lillard would have to improve his efficiency and IQ A LOT to get that level imo. Obviously he's only a rookie and that could well happen, it won't imo, but it's way too early to be sure. He'd also have to keep improving the other aspects of his game as well.

rondo is a fascinating one to look at. I kind of agree with a lot of what bill said, he can't go into "god mode." he can't carry the team on his back, in terms of scoring. But he can totally carry a team "emotionally," with leadership, toughness, defence, huge plays that change games. I also kind of agree with what Zan said, maybe we're running a bit fast and loose with the term superstar, so probably rondo isn't one.

but i'm a total rondo fanboy, 2nd best PG in the league imo, and quite close to paul imo, I know that might be controversial, but close to 14ppg on 48% shooting isn't shit, AND he's better than paul in some areas. You could totally build your team round him imo, you don't need a superstar to play with him. Solid wings who can shoot 3s, a faried type PF and a C who can score in the post, decent bench, is a team that would go far in the playoffs with rondo imo. Obv I just described a very good team but my point is I guess, he's a franchise player, if short of being a superstar.
I've been turned off by Rondo's stat padding this year.

His defense has also been subpar by his standards the last two years. He's still very good, but two years ago he seemed like the second coming of Gary Payton, and right now it'd be hard to list him for all-defense.

Add his flame outs with the coach and teammates where he can go as far as start throwing bottles around.

Btw, all three of those issues are character issues, not talent issues. It's scary how much better he could be if he could upgrade his attitude while retaining his competitive streak.

But as it stands, once you add character flaws, health and shooting, he wouldn't be on my top 5 list as far as point guards that I'd want on my team.
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:10 AM   #27 (permalink)
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I would think hard before swaping Melo with Rudy. I know he is concidered to be a better player by most, and he might be.. But i just hate Melo, and I really doubt if he benefits team much more then Rudy

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Old 07-24-2013, 11:28 AM   #28 (permalink)
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To me, a superstar is someone who's an obvious first ballot hall of famer. Or at least looked like a future first ballot hall of famer for multiple years. People get injured or screw up but it doesn't mean that we can take away their superstar status in hindsight.
For example, Yao = superstar, even if his prime was short. Bosh = borderline, although if he wins a few more titles he'll be first ballot based on that.

Superstars in the making -- Anthony Davis, Blake Griffin, Kyrie Irving, Westbrook, Steph Curry
Superstars in their prime -- LeBron, Durant, Chris Paul, Dwight, Tony Parker, Rose, Carmelo, Love
Superstars past their prime -- Kobe, Wade, Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, Pierce, Ray Allen, Pau Gasol, Amare
Superstars near retirement -- Nash, Vince, TMac, Jermaine O'Neal

I'll have to wait a year before I put Harden, George, John Wall, Drummond, etc on the list.

DWill, Rondo and Bynum kind of belong on the "prime SStars" list in terms of ability. But they need to have bounce back years and get back on track.
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Old 07-24-2013, 11:45 AM   #29 (permalink)
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To me, a superstar is someone who's an obvious first ballot hall of famer. Or at least looked like a future first ballot hall of famer for multiple years. People get injured or screw up but it doesn't mean that we can take away their superstar status in hindsight.
For example, Yao = superstar, even if his prime was short. Bosh = borderline, although if he wins a few more titles he'll be first ballot based on that.

Superstars in the making -- Anthony Davis, Blake Griffin, Kyrie Irving, Westbrook, Steph Curry
Superstars in their prime -- LeBron, Durant, Chris Paul, Dwight, Tony Parker, Rose, Carmelo, Love
Superstars past their prime -- Kobe, Wade, Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, Pierce, Ray Allen, Pau Gasol, Amare
Superstars near retirement -- Nash, Vince, TMac, Jermaine O'Neal

I'll have to wait a year before I put Harden, George, John Wall, Drummond, etc on the list.

DWill, Rondo and Bynum kind of belong on the "prime SStars" list in terms of ability. But they need to have bounce back years and get back on track.
I'd have to think twice about letting Jermaine and Amare into the Hall...
They haven't really won anything notable...

Other than that, good post.
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:01 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I'd have to think twice about letting Jermaine and Amare into the Hall...
They haven't really won anything notable...

Other than that, good post.
Jermaine probably won't be in the hall. Amare will, but likely not first ballot. However, they both looked like surefire hall of famers at one point. Jermaine was probably a bit overrated at the time but he was 3rd in MVP voting one year and perennial starter in the All Star game. Amare was Amare, 30-11 in the playoffs as a 22 years old. Both were superstars, even if their careers had bumps.

Imagine if Rose never recovers. 10 years from now, he will be a "superstar near retirement".
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:09 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I've been turned off by Rondo's stat padding this year.

His defense has also been subpar by his standards the last two years. He's still very good, but two years ago he seemed like the second coming of Gary Payton, and right now it'd be hard to list him for all-defense.

Add his flame outs with the coach and teammates where he can go as far as start throwing bottles around.

Btw, all three of those issues are character issues, not talent issues. It's scary how much better he could be if he could upgrade his attitude while retaining his competitive streak.

But as it stands, once you add character flaws, health and shooting, he wouldn't be on my top 5 list as far as point guards that I'd want on my team.
It's funny.... I say the same thing about Westbrook and people think I'm crazy.
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:23 PM   #32 (permalink)
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i think what makes a superstar a superstar is the box office appeal. for example, some people here argue that rondo is a superstar. in terms of skill you can say he has "superstar level talent" but he doesn't have box office appeal. so overall he's not a superstar in my opinion.

i don't consider griffin a superstar either, but i would put him above rondo despite the fact that rondo is a better player than griffin because griffin can sell tickets.

i think there are really only 5 true superstars as of right now. Lebron, CP3, Durant, Rose, Kobe (Howard was but fell out because of the last few years, but he could get back in depending on this upcoming season)

Kobe is way past his prime as a player but his name, his brand is still bigger than ever. you ask someone who knows nothing about basketball to name one nba player and 50% of the time they say kobe and another 50% say lebron. so that's why kobe is still a superstar
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:27 PM   #33 (permalink)
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It's funny.... I say the same thing about Westbrook and people think I'm crazy.
Which part? Health, shooting or character flaws?

Westbrook has never missed a game until the recent knee bump.

He's not a good 3pt shooter but he's a good mid range shooter, and he's a very good player.

And by all accounts, he's a good guy.

I think there's a stigma where if a guy chucks some shots, people automatically assume that there must be something wrong with the player's character. "Hey, Kobe, Iverson and Steve Francis chucked shots, and they had personality issues, so Westbrook must be a bad guy too, derp derp."

Or maybe the guy simply chucks some shots? Westbrook, Rudy Gay, DeMar, Brandon Knight and so on all chuck some shots. Not everyone is Steve Nash. It doesn't mean they are bad people.
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:30 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Lol @ JV becoming a superstar. :cookie:
Let's try star first and go from there...
it was said that he's a "possible" future superstar. imo among the younger players in the league he's up there in star potential. nobody is saying he's a guaranteed superstar.
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:32 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I've been turned off by Rondo's stat padding this year.

His defense has also been subpar by his standards the last two years. He's still very good, but two years ago he seemed like the second coming of Gary Payton, and right now it'd be hard to list him for all-defense.

Add his flame outs with the coach and teammates where he can go as far as start throwing bottles around.

Btw, all three of those issues are character issues, not talent issues. It's scary how much better he could be if he could upgrade his attitude while retaining his competitive streak.

But as it stands, once you add character flaws, health and shooting, he wouldn't be on my top 5 list as far as point guards that I'd want on my team.
I haven't really noticed the padding or worsening defence, but I do agree about the character issues, I won't say "flaws." reason I don't say flaws is coz as often happens it's a negative and a positive (passion desire, competitiveness,) although he definitely needs to be more analytical and try and curb it a bit.

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It's funny.... I say the same thing about Westbrook and people think I'm crazy.
I definitely do not think you're crazy! Westbrook is a nutcase. Rondo so far in his career has maybe had more fall-outs with people (that are publicised,) but westbrook regularly shows his temperament getting the better of him, actually on the floor, compared to rondo, who imo holds it together on the floor.

westbrook reminds me of melo, will put up great numbers in reg season, look awesome, but hurt you with their decision making and selfishness when it comes to playoffs. Westbrook has improved slightly in that regard but still a problem, yet to see any improvement from 29yr old melo!
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:34 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Superstars in the making:

James Harden, Steph Curry, Kyrie Irving, Andre Drummond, John Wall, Anthony Davis

I don't think Paul George will ever reach superstar status. He's going to be Andre Iguodala on roids, but still not superstar status, which I'll explain later. DeMarcus Cousins is another guy who could be on this list if he fixes his game, because he has the ability and has shown he can play at that level. Kevin Love is one step ahead of DeMarcus currently, but like George, I doubt if he'll ever reach superstar status due to his defence and inability to carry a team offensively(ie commanding double teams, which he doesn't do because he's not that kind of player).

Superstars in their prime:

Lebron James, Kevin Durant(entering prime in 1-2 years), Carmelo Anthony, Derrick Rose(same as KD, assuming he's going to get back to his old self), Chris Paul, Dwight Howard

Superstars past their prime:

Paul Pierce, Dwyane Wade, Dirk Nowitzki

Superstars near retirement:

Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant


To dumb it down, to be a superstar in my books, you have to have the ability to carry an average team as THE guy to the playoffs. All of the non superstars in the making listed are or have been capable of doing so.

Now in terms of current, or up and coming superstars, you have to be able to dominate and control a game.

The guys I listed, such as Harden, Wall, Curry, and Irving can dominate offensively with their ball handling, ability to create for themselves and for others, and are so good in pick and roll scenarios, that alone creates open looks for their teammates, while they're still good enough to score themselves almost whenever they want to.

With Davis, I believe in 2 years time that he'll be a 20+10+3 bigman, but unlike the bigmen of the past few years that have averaged those numbers(ie Lee and Randolph), he'll have a huge impact on the game defensively. I think he'll be extremely efficient offensively, and although he may never command consistent double teams, he'll still get his points, but his impact on winning will be felt moreso on defence. He'll be KG lite, but has the ability to get near KG level.

With Drummond, his defensive potential is through the roof. I know people are going to think it's a ridiculous pick, but it's my list so whatever. As a 19 year old player, what he showed last year was awesome. He's got quickness to stay with guards if they switch on pick and roll, and his basketball IQ is underrated as he was able to play angles very well to avoid fouls and get to spots to be able to make plays defensively. If he can have a Ben Wallace type of impact on defence, while scoring 15+ points per game, he will be a superstar in my eyes because you can put him on most rosters and his defensive ability will help them get into the playoffs. His offence isn't as bad as people make it seem too. He's got good hands, a nice hookshot around the rim, and he's already a very good offensive rebounder and good at tipping rebounds in. I dont think it's out of this realm to say he can average 15 points on hook shots, dunks, putbacks, and free throws, but if he ever develops a post game, goodnight NBA. Obviously he needs to improve his free throw shooting, but he's shown so far he's willing to work hard on his game, so if he ends up in the 50-60% FT range that should be suffice.

In terms of George and Love, I think their impact on offence is very good, but not great. They dont command double teams because they cant consistently create their own offence, and although George is very good on defence, he's not a LOCKDOWN elite perimeter defender to where he can dominate games on defence. So although George is good to very good on offence, and very good on defence, I'm not so sure if he had less talent on his team that he'd be able to carry them to the playoffs. And with Love, his defence is horrendous, but again, offensively although he averaged 26 ppg, it wasn't as impressive of a number as it should be IMO because he didnt create openings for his teammates off double teams and teams really keying in on him, because a lot of his points come from spot ups and offensive rebounding. You'd prefer him to try and score 26 points by himself and key in on his teammates because I dont think he's good enough individually to get his own on a consistent basis.
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Old 07-24-2013, 12:39 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I haven't really noticed the padding or worsening defence, but I do agree about the character issues, I won't say "flaws." reason I don't say flaws is coz as often happens it's a negative and a positive (passion desire, competitiveness,) although he definitely needs to be more analytical and try and curb it a bit.



I definitely do not think you're crazy! Westbrook is a nutcase. Rondo so far in his career has maybe had more fall-outs with people (that are publicised,) but westbrook regularly shows his temperament getting the better of him, actually on the floor, compared to rondo, who imo holds it together on the floor.

westbrook reminds me of melo, will put up great numbers in reg season, look awesome, but hurt you with their decision making and selfishness when it comes to playoffs. Westbrook has improved slightly in that regard but still a problem, yet to see any improvement from 29yr old melo!
Rondo was passing layups last year in order to maintain his "10+ assists in a game" streak. There was a number of terrible decisions, where he'd make a pass to a trailer for a more contested shot to get his assist.

He's a great player though when he gets his head straight. And it's been straight during the playoffs, to his credit.
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Old 07-24-2013, 01:15 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Superstars in the making: Paul George, Stephen Curry, Kevin Durant, James Harden, Russell Westbrook, Kyrie Irving, DeMarcus Cousins, John Wall, Damian Lillard
Superstars in their prime: LeBron James, Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, Rajon Rondo, Deron Williams, Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, Marc Gasol, LaMarcus Aldridge
Superstars past their prime: Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Pau Gasol, Dirk Nowitzki, Zach Randolph, Danny Granger
Superstars near retirement: Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Manu Ginobili

I just decided to stop at some point so uhh, that's my opinion and the term "superstar" may be subjective to others.
If I forgot some, feel free to let me know... I guess.
Only others I can think of are;

Add; in prime Tony Parker and Bosh
Add past their prime; Ray Allen, Dwight Howard
Add near retiring; Amare Stoudamire, Vince Carter

All subjective...

And in the making, Jonas Valancuinis

The only one I disagree with in this thread is Kevin Love and lol JO

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Old 07-24-2013, 01:17 PM   #39 (permalink)
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yeah perhaps mine was more of an all-star list.
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Old 07-24-2013, 02:08 PM   #40 (permalink)
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yeah perhaps mine was more of an all-star list.
Could also be a future HoF list.
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