Who do you think are the Top 10 NBA Players Ever (no order/rank involved) ? - Page 3

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Old 10-21-2012, 07:37 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I'm not sure why a couple more rings changes anything for Kobe. Should Robert Horry enter into the discussion? Don't think so?

To me Russell gets in for establishing the importance of unselfish, all-around team play as the means of his success, not the success alone. Kobe has seldomly sacrificed anything, and to what extent he did with Shaq, he bitched about it to the point that Shaq had to be traded. He falls into selfish mode too easily for me to consider him, unlike Lebron, who already comes out ahead of him for his overall versatility and playing for his teammates as much as with his teammates in the fashion of all the others seen as automatic.
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Old 10-21-2012, 07:52 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Robert Horry is a role player. Kobe is one of the greatest to ever play. Why even make that comparison? Your hate for Kobe is blatant and sad.
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Old 10-21-2012, 07:56 PM   #43 (permalink)
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And winning 2 more rings would definitely change things for Kobe, like it or not. When people look back it, him being the player he was, and having won more rings than any other player in NBA history - other than Russell - he will definitely be top 10 and more than likely top 5.
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Old 10-21-2012, 07:59 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Robert Horry is a role player. Kobe is one of the greatest to ever play. Why even make that comparison? Your hate for Kobe is blatant and sad.
Yeah, and I seriously suggested that they should be compared. Your ability to read and understand nuance is a little blatant and sad, but mostly I figure you have the excuse of blinders. If I'm not allowed to have an opinion without you attacking me, because you fucking love Kobe so much, then just how pathetic is that?

I have a good number of players that I have loved as favorites over the years. Bird is about the only one that I can put in the top ten with all honestly. John Stockton was one of the greatest players to ever play. He filled me with true joy for many years. I won't call you sad or a hater for not including him the top ten.

I'm not that far off from agreeing with your 8-12 range. I'd say 11-16. So why be so fucking dismissive and defensive? It's ridiculous.
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Old 10-21-2012, 08:05 PM   #45 (permalink)
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And winning 2 more rings would definitely change things for Kobe, like it or not. When people look back it, him being the player he was, and having won more rings than any other player in NBA history - other than Russell - he will definitely be top 10 and more than likely top 5.
Yeah - for me it changes nothing, and you should get that from my posts. He is and was the player he was regardless. And the selfishness stands out for me a little too much to ignore. You might want to deny the selfish aspect, or think it matters very little, and I would suggest there are too many facts that cannot be denied and that the way the game is played does matter when grouping players. To me a Kobe alongside the others listed automatically is something akin to - one of these things is not like the others.
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Old 10-21-2012, 08:21 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Yeah, and I seriously suggested that they should be compared. Your ability to read and understand nuance is a little blatant and sad, but mostly I figure you have the excuse of blinders. If I'm not allowed to have an opinion without you attacking me, because you fucking love Kobe so much, then just how pathetic is that?

I have a good number of players that I have loved as favorites over the years. Bird is about the only one that I can put in the top ten with all honestly. John Stockton was one of the greatest players to ever play. He filled me with true joy for many years. I won't call you sad or a hater for not including him the top ten.

I'm not that far off from agreeing with your 8-12 range. I'd say 11-16. So why be so fucking dismissive and defensive? It's ridiculous.
Because you come here with your absolutistic statements like it's a crime to consider him a top 10 player. Don't let your hate cloud you judgement.

And the Robert Horry thing. I wasn't saying you were comparing the players. But the situations are not alike because one is a role player and one is a legend. For example, if Fisher wins another ring, it won't really matter for people's perception of him. However, if Kobe wins another, it will definitely make people's views towards him more positive, simply because he's one of the best to ever play. Whether you agree or not, rings change the way people view you in terms of ranking players throughout history. Do you think if LeBron never wins another ring that he'll be considered a top 10 player? I doubt it. But if he wins a couple more rings, then there's really no doubt he would.

And the Shaq thing. Why is it that Shaq gets none of the blame in LA? Have you ever noticed that Shaq has always had problems on every team he's ever been on? Don't you see the common denominator there?
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Old 10-21-2012, 08:25 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Yeah, and I seriously suggested that they should be compared. Your ability to read and understand nuance is a little blatant and sad, but mostly I figure you have the excuse of blinders.
Agreed, you need to get your LX sarcasm meter adjusted Clutch.
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Old 10-21-2012, 08:25 PM   #48 (permalink)
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There are arguments for and against a lot of players. You could say Dr.J didn't do enough in the NBA. You could say Oscar Robertson, despite his 6-7 years of complete and utter statistical dominance, only won one ring and one MVP and didn't even get his team to the playoffs all the time. You could argue that Karl doesn't deserve it because he never won a ring, despite his longevity and being one of the most consistent elite level players ever. Even Shaq (and to a lesser extent, Bird) isn't a lock given how bad the last 5-6 years of his career were. Also I do think it's important to give at least a tiny bit of consideration to positional importance and based on that I gave Karl a little given that he's the only power-forward on or anywhere near my list while the others are clearly centres.

On the flip side some of you guys aren't including Hakeem which to me is sacrilege. The only player to win DPOY, MVP and finals MVP in the same season. Back-to-back 'chips, all time leader in blocks. He is the epitome of a two-way player.

Likewise there are plenty of arguments for Moses Malone (3 MVPs, All-Time leader in Offensive Rebounds, led the NBA in rebounding six times, one 'chip and finals MVP), George Mikan (five 'chips and fundamentally altered the rules of the NBA but didn't get any MVPs because they didn't exist at the time) or John Havlicek (Won 7 times, Finals MVP, five-time all-defensive first-team, 4 first and seven second team selections, winning the greatest NBA game of all-time).

If I was forced to include players still playing it would probably look like this:

Wilt Chamberlain
Kareem-Abdul Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Oscar Robertson
Shaquille O'Neal

To me there are only three locks for this list: Michael Jordan, Kareem-Abdul Jabbar and Wilt Chamberlain.

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Old 10-21-2012, 08:37 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Yeah and the NBA logo is modelled after Jerry West but you didn't see him on that many of these top 10s. I don't necessarily value rings as the ultimate factor in regards to being top 10. If I did then Robert Horry should be top 10. That and it's just a fact that offense is valued more highly than defense. If we were going for the top 10 best team players in NBA history yeah he'd be top 3 but I'm talking about individual players' ability and achievements and individually he wasn't a fantastic offensive player.

And for the record I'm including Dr.J's ABA career as part of the reason for being in my top ten. That's what puts him over the top, really.
Dr.J isn't top 10 because it's top 10 in the nba. Even then, he can't be included, Moses Malone would be above him.

Russell is highly regarded by everyone, across all different generations. Boston wouldn't have been able to do what they did without him. I never said 11 championships was the sole reason why Bill Russell was in the top 10. He impacted the game when he played. You can still impact the game without being a top option on offense. He has 5 NBA MVP trophies. Typically the MVP award is given to the best player on the best team in the league as they're the most valuable.

West isn't as highly regarded due to the fact that that would open the floodgates for a lot of other guards.

Also, Elgin Baylor would get a lot more love had he won a ring.

Last edited by LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!!; 10-21-2012 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 10-21-2012, 08:45 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I don't think it's that hard to pinpoint the players that made unique contributions to he game, while standing out as legends in their own time.
LX - was this directed to me?

If so, I completely agree that the legends of yesteryears leave a mark throughout the generations, but if that's the case, why has no one mention the likes of george mikan? i think we could all agree that his impact to the game was quite huge, probably larger than what bill russell's was. how do you compare his contributions to the wilt/russell generation, let alone todays? i just find it endless.

we will never know what kobe would do in a bulls uniform, just like we'd never know how jordan would react to having a ball dominant center to play with. at the end of the day, i really believe that anyone would have a hard time convincing me that john stockton was a better point guard than jason kidd.
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Old 10-21-2012, 09:22 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Dr.J isn't top 10 because it's top 10 in the nba. Even then, he can't be included, Moses Malone would be above him.

Russell is highly regarded by everyone, across all different generations. Boston wouldn't have been able to do what they did without him. I never said 11 championships was the sole reason why Bill Russell was in the top 10. He impacted the game when he played. You can still impact the game without being a top option on offense. He has 5 NBA MVP trophies. Typically the MVP award is given to the best player on the best team in the league as they're the most valuable.

West isn't as highly regarded due to the fact that that would open the floodgates for a lot of other guards.

Also, Elgin Baylor would get a lot more love had he won a ring.
Your reasoning is exactly why I underrate Russell perhaps. It's the reasons that aren't related to the individual player that earn them the MVP that I have a problem with. It's also why Rose got the MVP when Dwight Howard deserved it or why Steve Nash won two when his statistical contributions were pretty dubious.

I don't buy the argument that West opens the door for other guards. He's far and away one of the best players of all time at his position or not. The logo has averages of 27, 5.8 and 6.7, ten first teams, 4 defense first-teams (all after the age of 32), the only player to win Finals MVP on the losing team. Some things he did are just astounding for a guard of his era, like averaging 2.6 steals in his final season at age 36. Chris Paul averaged less than that this past year and led the league.

Another guy I forget to mention about having a good argument for the top ten is Bob Pettit. Insane averages of 26/16, two MVPs, winning the 'chip in the middle of the unstoppable Celtics dynasty of the 50s, ten first teams and two scoring titles.
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Old 10-21-2012, 09:32 PM   #52 (permalink)
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A thing to keep in mind is pace and how much faster the game was played back then
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Old 10-21-2012, 09:38 PM   #53 (permalink)
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LX - was this directed to me?

If so, I completely agree that the legends of yesteryears leave a mark throughout the generations, but if that's the case, why has no one mention the likes of george mikan? i think we could all agree that his impact to the game was quite huge, probably larger than what bill russell's was. how do you compare his contributions to the wilt/russell generation, let alone todays? i just find it endless.

we will never know what kobe would do in a bulls uniform, just like we'd never know how jordan would react to having a ball dominant center to play with. at the end of the day, i really believe that anyone would have a hard time convincing me that john stockton was a better point guard than jason kidd.
Mikan probably should make it. And there could be others from the sixties that likely should be considered. Wilt would probably be the first guy I'd think of moving off the list. The older stuff always loses out to that of nearer proximities. And yeah - that is endless. But I do think there is a real line of progression that makes for an ok exercise, and the question that comes into play for me, is where do the lines of distinction cross over to groups of players that just become preferences. Top ten is a pretty arbitrary sort of classification with no reasoning behind it. It's just a nice number. To that extent I agree with your objections. And I wouldn't see any point to start ranking them in any order either. Had that been the intent of this thread I would have responded much as you did.
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Old 10-21-2012, 10:46 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Why don't we up it to top 20 players and get to see people's justification from even crazier inclusions/exclusions. I agree though that a top ten is pretty arbitrary and really that it's a lot better to do best-of lists in terms of positions. It's easier to define the roles and to say who excelled in them.
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Old 10-21-2012, 11:37 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Totally unrelated but i saw his name and thought i should say this, Robert Horry should be a Hall Of Famer....at least,some day...

Rotation player but he had key roles for three multiple championship teams. They use the term "Fame" in the hall,everybody who watches basketball knows Horry and he had a decent career.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:49 AM   #56 (permalink)
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I'm not gonna make a list, agree with most guys lists, give or take the 1 or 2 debateable ones.

Just wanted to say that i HATE people talking about rings when assessing players! Saying something like "jordan won the bulls titles almost single-handedly" is an acceptable point to add to the overall assessment of him but just coldly talking about how many rings they've won or saying "X player has 2 more rings than Y player" is near pointless imo.

There are some true greats out there, stockton is a good example, who never won any and they can't be discounted. Although i wouldn't quite put him in the top10.

i also think people pay too much attention to longevity. It's way more relevant than rings imo but still should only be part of the conversation, not a dominating factor. So for me, kareem, amazing player, but just misses out. I guess if you're comparing 2 players and they're similar, longevity can be a good tie-break factor.

It should be "how good were they at playing basketball." I realise my "methods" are a bit left-field! But i'm like this with football as well. As long as they had a few amazing seasons, i feel like i've seen enough to pretty much know how good they were. So although pete maravich is nowhere near top10 i bet he's a lot higher in my list than other people's! Fantastic player.

Also think people are too easily discounting cousy. There are some bigs often talked about as top10 who benefitted nearly as much or as much as cousy from the game not being ready for them. I've not seen a lot of cousy but what i have seen and read about him tells me he was an absolute master and should be right in the conversation for top10. I would have him ahead of someone like bryant, no question.

Last edited by LKeet6; 10-22-2012 at 07:52 AM.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:28 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Yeah, keet, I know I find it hard myself not to say Bill Walton, even though his career was so brief. He just made such a huge impression on me all the same. I think that counting rings and accumulated stats is done to try to bring in some sense of objectivity, but it's often done by the most subjective of fans.

I really appreciate the way the Hall of Fame doesn't strictly look at numbers, but rather the impact on the game and how they played as part of a team.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:28 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Kobe is in the 11-25 range

Stockton was better than Kidd
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:39 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Kobe is in the 11-25 range

Stockton was better than Kidd
you forgot to add 15 exclamation points afterwards like it means something. i don't necessarily believe kidd is the better between the two, but if you're basing it off of accomplishments/achievements, you're going to have a tough time.
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:03 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Jordan
Russell
Kareem
Hakeem
Duncan
Magic
Bird
Wilt
Shaq
KG
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