Pippen says LBJ might be better than MJ - Page 3
Old 05-29-2011, 10:58 AM   #41 (permalink)
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YouTube - ‪Michael Jordan 2002: NBA Record 51 pts at age 38‬‏

Lebron looks raw compared to this. And this is when MJ was 12 years OLDER THAN LEBRON IS RIGHT NOW!!!!

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Old 06-01-2011, 01:07 AM   #42 (permalink)
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pippen was consistently a 21/7/7 guy during both the bulls three-peats and was arguably a better player than dwyane wade.

had lebron had a scottie pippen beside him in cleveland i'm confident he would have never left.
We'd do well to remember that Micheal is directly responsible for how good Scottie & Horace became. Micheal mentored Scottie to the point that they became twins defensively unto all-NBA Defensive selections, twins in terms of running the Triangle Offense, and helped Scottie grow from a rookie who avg'ed 8ppg to a consistent 22ppg guy. And he molded Horace into an elite hustle player who slowly also grew into a good scorer, different from his more offensively talented twin brother Harvey Grant. And he was directly involved in how good BJ Armstrong became.

OTOH, the only young player who developed under Lebitch was Anderson Varajao. And he for the 1st time showed confidence in his primary scoring skills this past season, his 1st w/o Lebitch.

But now Lebitch has a more talented wing player than Scottie in DWade, and a more talented big man than Horace in Chris Bosh: even more benefits than what Micheal had w/o ever putting in any of the type of work that Micheal put in.

As far as Lebitch being as good as Micheal when the lights turn on, "I have me antherums aboot it!" It more seems like Scottie is mockin Lebitch. This in light of that clever trailer where Jason Seigel is talkin the MJ vs. Lebitch debate in Bad Teachers! LOL!
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Old 06-01-2011, 09:01 AM   #43 (permalink)
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We'd do well to remember that Micheal is directly responsible for how good Scottie & Horace became. Micheal mentored Scottie to the point that they became twins defensively unto all-NBA Defensive selections, twins in terms of running the Triangle Offense, and helped Scottie grow from a rookie who avg'ed 8ppg to a consistent 22ppg guy. And he molded Horace into an elite hustle player who slowly also grew into a good scorer, different from his more offensively talented twin brother Harvey Grant. And he was directly involved in how good BJ Armstrong became.

OTOH, the only young player who developed under Lebitch was Anderson Varajao. And he for the 1st time showed confidence in his primary scoring skills this past season, his 1st w/o Lebitch.

But now Lebitch has a more talented wing player than Scottie in DWade, and a more talented big man than Horace in Chris Bosh: even more benefits than what Micheal had w/o ever putting in any of the type of work that Micheal put in.

As far as Lebitch being as good as Micheal when the lights turn on, "I have me antherums aboot it!" It more seems like Scottie is mockin Lebitch. This in light of that clever trailer where Jason Seigel is talkin the MJ vs. Lebitch debate in Bad Teachers! LOL!
You can't compare LeBron's supporting cast in Cleveland with Jordan's supporting cast in Chicago. This is the lineup LeBron took to the finals with him in 2007:

2006-07 Cleveland Cavaliers Roster and Statistics | Basketball-Reference.com

Notables are starting SG sasha pavlovic, starting PG eric snow, starting PF Drew Fucking Gooden, etc. That team was fucking terrible. No one on that team had anywhere near the talent or skill that both Pippen and Grant possessed. No one on that team was even a proven NBA player besides Eric Snow (way over the hill at that point) and Ilgauskas who was slowing down. Also you never mentioned Rodman. Dude was 5x the player Bosh will ever be.

How's LeBron supposed to help bring along young talent when he's not given any young talent to play with? Pavlovic? Tons of potential there. Boobie Gibson? Great bball IQ.

You have to consider that he raised the level of every player he played with. Mo Williams went bananas in Cleveland (until it came to the playoffs). Boobie Gibson looked like he kinda sorta belonged in an NBA starting lineup sometimes. JJ Hickson actually turned into a pretty good player. The fact that the majority of these guys have not shown long-term improvements in the post-LeBron era shouldn' be a a knock on LeBron, if anything it's a show of LeBron's greatness and the shit dude had to work with.

They're picking first in the lottery one year after he leaves. This after being a 61-win team. Like, come on. He's something else.
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Old 06-01-2011, 10:17 AM   #44 (permalink)
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You can't compare LeBron's supporting cast in Cleveland with Jordan's supporting cast in Chicago. This is the lineup LeBron took to the finals with him in 2007:

2006-07 Cleveland Cavaliers Roster and Statistics | Basketball-Reference.com

Notables are starting SG sasha pavlovic, starting PG eric snow, starting PF Drew Fucking Gooden, etc. That team was fucking terrible. No one on that team had anywhere near the talent or skill that both Pippen and Grant possessed. No one on that team was even a proven NBA player besides Eric Snow (way over the hill at that point) and Ilgauskas who was slowing down. Also you never mentioned Rodman. Dude was 5x the player Bosh will ever be.

How's LeBron supposed to help bring along young talent when he's not given any young talent to play with? Pavlovic? Tons of potential there. Boobie Gibson? Great bball IQ.

You have to consider that he raised the level of every player he played with. Mo Williams went bananas in Cleveland (until it came to the playoffs). Boobie Gibson looked like he kinda sorta belonged in an NBA starting lineup sometimes. JJ Hickson actually turned into a pretty good player. The fact that the majority of these guys have not shown long-term improvements in the post-LeBron era shouldn' be a a knock on LeBron, if anything it's a show of LeBron's greatness and the shit dude had to work with.

They're picking first in the lottery one year after he leaves. This after being a 61-win team. Like, come on. He's something else.
+1 +1 +1
....well thought...
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Old 06-01-2011, 02:59 PM   #45 (permalink)
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We'd do well to remember that Micheal is directly responsible for how good Scottie & Horace became. Micheal mentored Scottie to the point that they became twins defensively unto all-NBA Defensive selections, twins in terms of running the Triangle Offense, and helped Scottie grow from a rookie who avg'ed 8ppg to a consistent 22ppg guy. And he molded Horace into an elite hustle player who slowly also grew into a good scorer, different from his more offensively talented twin brother Harvey Grant. And he was directly involved in how good BJ Armstrong became.

OTOH, the only young player who developed under Lebitch was Anderson Varajao. And he for the 1st time showed confidence in his primary scoring skills this past season, his 1st w/o Lebitch.

But now Lebitch has a more talented wing player than Scottie in DWade, and a more talented big man than Horace in Chris Bosh: even more benefits than what Micheal had w/o ever putting in any of the type of work that Micheal put in.

As far as Lebitch being as good as Micheal when the lights turn on, "I have me antherums aboot it!" It more seems like Scottie is mockin Lebitch. This in light of that clever trailer where Jason Seigel is talkin the MJ vs. Lebitch debate in Bad Teachers! LOL!
You lost all credibility in my eyes when you starting saying "Lebitch"

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Old 06-02-2011, 01:26 AM   #46 (permalink)
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You can't compare LeBron's supporting cast in Cleveland with Jordan's supporting cast in Chicago. This is the lineup LeBron took to the finals with him in 2007:

2006-07 Cleveland Cavaliers Roster and Statistics | Basketball-Reference.com

Notables are starting SG sasha pavlovic, starting PG eric snow, starting PF Drew Fucking Gooden, etc. That team was fucking terrible. No one on that team had anywhere near the talent or skill that both Pippen and Grant possessed. No one on that team was even a proven NBA player besides Eric Snow (way over the hill at that point) and Ilgauskas who was slowing down. Also you never mentioned Rodman. Dude was 5x the player Bosh will ever be.

How's LeBron supposed to help bring along young talent when he's not given any young talent to play with? Pavlovic? Tons of potential there. Boobie Gibson? Great bball IQ.

You have to consider that he raised the level of every player he played with. Mo Williams went bananas in Cleveland (until it came to the playoffs). Boobie Gibson looked like he kinda sorta belonged in an NBA starting lineup sometimes. JJ Hickson actually turned into a pretty good player. The fact that the majority of these guys have not shown long-term improvements in the post-LeBron era shouldn' be a a knock on LeBron, if anything it's a show of LeBron's greatness and the shit dude had to work with.

They're picking first in the lottery one year after he leaves. This after being a 61-win team. Like, come on. He's something else.

(I agree w/the 1st sentence of your post, but feel the need to go into detail regarding how I feel of the rest, hence this long post)

W/o Micheal's leadership, teaching skills, and desire for his teammates success, it's arguable that Scottie and Horace would've been no more memorable than Aleksandar Pavlovic and Drew Gooden; who are two players that I think are pretty good at what they do. I feel both of them can help winning teams (unlike Reggie Evans, Joey Dorsey etc.).

Drew Gooden made key plays in that series vs. Detroit in '07, and was the primary defender on Tim Duncan in the last two Finals games, leading the scheme into holding him to 6-17 FG and 4-15 FG, and the last 3 games of that sweep were all close, thus Drew did his job as a starting caliber roleplayer in a big way. So while Drew isn't Horace Grant, he's not a scrub as the way you wrote about him denote. (@ Chiggmo: And on that note, Lebitch has fully earned his monicker for the way he's wailed out at the refs & even still gets away w/it even in the crackdown this year by them, and continually has shown lack of class & respect in all things when he doesn't get his way. It's not that hard to understand. And if you got a bone to pick w/me you can always PM me, as I see you took the time to insult me before I could see it, as it was removed.)

Aleksandar Pavlovic was a good defensive player who spaced the floor perfectly for Lebitch via shooting a very high trey %'age and having a good body & athleticism for finishing plays. He did as good a job one can do vs. Manu Ginobili. So while he's not Scottie on either end, he's not a scrub either. And w/his shooting stroke, handle, strength & athleticism for finishing, passing skills, unselfishness, and ability to fit in a team offense, it raises the question why he & other Cavaliers never reached their potential w/the Cavs.

Zydrunas' is what I've always felt the most clear example of that question. From 06-07 to 08-09, he got his pts primarily as a finisher, offensive rebounder, or floor spacer. I thought that w/his size, passing skills, shooting touch, post moves & counter moves, he should've had a much bigger role in the offense, and hence make the Cavs a better team. Yes he missed games due to injury (but was always there in the playoffs), but in the games he played, I couldn't figure out the logic of not using his primary skills more in the offense (basically doing what Chris Bosh does already in the Lebitch Heat's offense). But then I clearly saw why not, as I'll explain later when I write about Andersen.To that, I'd like to do a quick assessment on the young players Lebitch had the opportunity to develop, but didn't.

-In his rookie year, he came in w/Jason Kapono. Now they were both rooks, so I'll be the first to admit that even a rook like Lebitch shouldn't have the pressure to develop another rook. But w/how good of a shooter Jason has always been (and thus how clearly well his game compliments Lebitch's), one has to wonder why Jason didn't stick here. Especially given the success he had w/Miami, wherein Pat Riley even said that while Jason's a below average man defender, he's a very good team defender. And I believe the only reason why Miami didn't re-sign him in summer 2007 was b/c they were already leaning to 07-08 being a rebuilding year, what with how badly they got bounced by Chicago in the playoffs & the uncertainty regarding the main core's ability to compete (thus not wise to invest so heavily in Jason).

-In his 2nd year, he had Luke Jackson & Andersen Varajao. Luke never even got a chance to stick w/them. However, he showed plenty what he got in the last regular season game of 06-07 with us:


Now of course I'm not saying Luke looks like Scottie Pippen here, but w/the way he was scoring these pts (namely pull-ups off the bounce, showing athleticism in his finishes, and swishing his spot-up 3's), show that he could be a damn good rotation player (a fact that I feel he finally proved in 09-10, bringing his Italian team into Lega-A play for awhile; that's something most NBA players couldn't do, aside from established & renowned starters & allstars). Now w/his solid athleticism, work ethic to maximize his athleticism for defense, ability to run an offense (he was a point forward @ Oregon), dedication to team play, high character, and very smooth shooting stroke, one has to wonder why Lebitch gave up on him so easily. It's also worth it to note that Luke said 'Chris Bosh is the most unselfish all-star he's ever played with,' around being signed for the rest of the 06-07 season. Take it how you want, but I reckon that's a subtle jab at the all-star he played with in Cleveland. I'll write about Andersen a bit later here.

-To begin his 4th year, he had Shannon Brown & Daniel Gibson. One player was an above average athlete who played both guard spots, got after it defensively, and played under Coach Izzo @ MSU; the other a point guard who had to play SG b/c of personnel @ Texas under an equally awsome coach in Rick Barnes, who had one of the best shooting strokes to go w/a smooth handle & defensive intensity.

Daniel proved his worth in his rookie season unto gettin burn, and then solidified it w/his play on both ends vs. the Pistons in the playoffs. How the next season the Cavs were convinced to invest in Mo Williams after the promise Daniel showed is beyond the logic I'm accustomed to. Especially when you consider he's always been a better defender than Mo, more durable than Mo, has as much playmaking potential as Mo (they both operated as off-guards as the point forward is the floor general in that offense), is a better knockdown shooter than Mo, can shoot off the bounce better than Mo, and is a better penetrator than Mo. His April 15th 2009 game vs. the 76ers gave a clear indication to me how good he really is, even including consistent solid ball IQ, but simply wasn't being used accordingly. I've the boxscore here, but I know most ppl didn't see this game (highlights are still available on the 'net though) so I know it's not uber proof, but everyone saw his performance in the '07 & '08 playoffs; thus the question why didn't Lebitch bother to help develop him further? It's not like 40+ percent 3pth shooters who play unselfishly, are A-1 tough defensively and also character guys grow on trees.

NBA - Philadelphia 76ers/Cleveland Cavaliers Box Score Wednesday April 15, 2009 - Yahoo! Canada Sports

Then there's Shannon Brown, whom I couldn't believe fell so far to thier pick (especially given what a bad draft '06 was; only 2000 was worse). How did Cleveland miss out on a guy w/MSU fundamentals (which is saying alot; everyone knows Spartans come to play, doing all the little things to win games), plays unselfishly, plays both guard spots, has freakishly long arms, is a good guy, gets after it on D, and makes for exciting plays on offense? This while even having veteran Spartan Eric Snow to show'em the ropes. Kobe had no problem developing him, and I think he was the Lakers 2nd best guard this past season.

Getting back to Andersen, yes he's developed very well on defense and as a hustle player on offense (and as of 10-11, he's even cutting out much of the flopping in his game!). But he plays like kinda like Lamar Odom for the Brazilian National Team, and given his above average athleticism, strong fundamentals on both ends of the floor, and awsome defensive impact (thus logic says to develop him further b/c he's not a liability), it's very curious why he never showed his stuff while teammates w/Lebitch (and only now showed it a little this season, where Cleveland was clearly tanking). Then it all dawned on me when I saw a Cavs game in the 07-08 season on the opposing team's feed (it wasn't a national televised game, but a Cdn station picked it up during the week; a Monday or Tuesday IIRC), where Andersen grabbed a rebound & got fouled -thus a stoppage in play- and Lebitch is clearly heard yellin at him "What are you doing? That's my rebound. When you see I'm near a triple-double, thats MY rebound. Got it?" And w/that, it all made sense to me; Lebitch cares more about being a star than developing his young players.

My dislike for Lebitch doesn't stem from some falsehood in my imagination. And I'm actually the type of fan who loves arrogant ball players (as a youth I was rooting for Charles Barkley, Isiah Thomas, Bill Laimbeer & Dennis Rodman, the latter who was a solid roleplayer when not being a sideshow, but doesn't have a thing on CB4 man! C'mon man!), but there's no logic to me for arrogantly doing such a thing to a teammate.

So I think you're right in a number of the points you addressed, but I feel I'm 'more right' in my argument, especially w/Micheal directly being responsible for how Scottie & Horace developed (I didn't mention Dennis b/c he developed w/the Pistons; and was a better Piston than he was a Bull, I feel). So while Lebitch never had a Pippen-like prospect to develop, it doesn't matter; Lebitch didn't even care to develop the lesser-type talents, which is an easier thing to do, especially when you consider how green Scottie was as a rookie.

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Old 06-13-2011, 09:50 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Old 06-13-2011, 09:54 AM   #48 (permalink)
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It would now look like LBJ is at that next level below. There just hasn't been a player with MJ's resolve and talent combined.

What about Dirk? Is he as good as a Bird? Or better even?
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Old 06-13-2011, 10:09 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Valuing an individual on a teams success is senseless.
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Old 06-13-2011, 10:15 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Valuing an individual on a teams success is senseless.
even when that player claims to be the chosen one?
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Old 06-13-2011, 12:18 PM   #51 (permalink)
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It would now look like LBJ is at that next level below. There just hasn't been a player with MJ's resolve and talent combined.

What about Dirk? Is he as good as a Bird? Or better even?
I like Dirk, but he is not better than Bird. Bird is better. Thats to say the least. Bird is so amazing, I think every young kid who wants to be a basketball player should watch some Bird footage. Hes the one, he was that good and amazing to watch.
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Old 06-13-2011, 01:05 PM   #52 (permalink)
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I like Dirk, but he is not better than Bird. Bird is better. Thats to say the least. Bird is so amazing, I think every young kid who wants to be a basketball player should watch some Bird footage. Hes the one, he was that good and amazing to watch.
I concurr
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Old 06-13-2011, 01:48 PM   #53 (permalink)
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I agree as well. I do think Dirk approaches Bird though, and I never thought I'd see that. Bird is still as far above Dirk mentally as MJ is over Lebron.

It was really interesting to me to see Lebron literally hit the wall when the pressure got to be too much. It makes me appreciate the ability to push through that. I've always thought that talent was over-rated. I've been saying it forever. And this series made it very clear. Having two top 5 guys doesn't necessarily translate into anything. There are a lot of equalizers that can stand in the way: the intangibles, the mental approach, the chemistry, and just being able to play in the moment. Lebron was not able to play in the moment as the best player in the game when it counted. He ended up having this impulse to throw the ball away that was remarkable. And Wade was not a top 5 player as much as he continued to fight. If they had more going on as a team that would have helped for sure, but that only goes to further show that it's not on talent alone. There is so much more in play and fans need to appreciate that more instead of equating superior talent with superior chances of winning.
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Old 06-13-2011, 01:55 PM   #54 (permalink)
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I agree as well. I do think Dirk approaches Bird though, and I never thought I'd see that. Bird is still as far above Dirk mentally as MJ is over Lebron.

It was really interesting to me to see Lebron literally hit the wall when the pressure got to be too much. It makes me appreciate the ability to push through that. I've always thought that talent was over-rated. I've been saying it forever. And this series made it very clear. Having two top 5 guys doesn't necessarily translate into anything. There are a lot of equalizers that can stand in the way: the intangibles, the mental approach, the chemistry, and just being able to play in the moment. Lebron was not able to play in the moment as the best player in the game when it counted. He ended up having this impulse to throw the ball away that was remarkable. And Wade was not a top 5 player as much as he continued to fight. If they had more going on as a team that would have helped for sure, but that only goes to further show that it's not on talent alone. There is so much more in play and fans need to appreciate that more instead of equating superior talent with superior chances of winning.
They definitely need more time together before they take that final step. Making the finals alone was an accomplishment in itself. Not many teams assembled in 1 year could have done that. You need that chemistry though... that EXPERIENCE to win the big one. The Heat looked a lot like the Thunder in that sense.
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:00 PM   #55 (permalink)
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They definitely need more time together before they take that final step. Making the finals alone was an accomplishment in itself. Not many teams assembled in 1 year could have done that. You need that chemistry though... that EXPERIENCE to win the big one. The Heat looked a lot like the Thunder in that sense.
And that's a scary fact. This team didn't even have one year under it's belt and it made the finals. On talent alone.
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:05 PM   #56 (permalink)
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They definitely need more time together before they take that final step. Making the finals alone was an accomplishment in itself. Not many teams assembled in 1 year could have done that. You need that chemistry though... that EXPERIENCE to win the big one. The Heat looked a lot like the Thunder in that sense.
They shouldn't have looked anything like the Thunder though. There was experience there, and the one guy out of the three that had little playoff experience, and still a pretty good bit of pressure, handled it pretty well. Lebron really needs to be able to face the pressure before they get a championship. It's more than experience. That one guy is going to have to look at the ugly truth of what he experienced. If he just brushes it off, again, then it's not going to amount to anything.
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:08 PM   #57 (permalink)
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And that's a scary fact. This team didn't even have one year under it's belt and it made the finals. On talent alone.
It was a lot more than talent alone. They really accelerated the process and put a lot of work in on the defensive end. There was enough of a focus to get to the finals and to win the finals. When that focus was lost from one guy the talent turned into an irrelevancy.
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:54 PM   #58 (permalink)
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What about Dirk? Is he as good as a Bird? Or better even?
You can't be serious.

There will never be another Larry Bird from his heart to his work ethic to his talent.
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:12 PM   #59 (permalink)
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To be comparable to Bird, Dirk would need to do more of the following:

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Old 06-13-2011, 03:27 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Might as well post it here. Steve Kerr wrote a article on ESPN on this topic kinda.

Quote:
Scottie Pippen had it all wrong when he recently compared LeBron James with Michael Jordan, said one former Chicago Bulls teammate.

"The irony to me is that LeBron is not Michael. LeBron is actually Scottie," former Bull and current television analyst Steve Kerr said Monday on "The Waddle & Silvy Show" on ESPN 1000. "He's so similar to Scottie in that defensively he was just a monster, could guard anybody, really more of a point forward than scoring guard. Scottie always loved to distribute the ball. That's really where LeBron's preference is.

"Phil Jackson used to call Scottie a 'sometimes shooter.' Sometimes they would go in, sometimes they wouldn't. That's how it is with LeBron. He's a great talent and a great player but you can see his flaws as a basketball player. He doesn't have an offensive game that he can rely on: no low-post game, no mid-range jump shot so when the game really gets tough he has a hard time finding easy baskets and getting himself going. That's what Michael did in his sleep so that's why the comparison is wrong."

After James' Heat beat the Bulls in the Eastern Conference finals, Pippen told ESPN Radio's "Mike & Mike in the Morning" that while he believes Jordan is the greatest scorer in NBA history, James "may be the greatest player to ever play the game."

After thriving against the Bulls, James struggled -- especially in the fourth quarter -- in the NBA Finals against the Dallas Mavericks, who won three straight games against the Heat to win the title on Sunday.

James averaged 26.7 points per game in the regular season, but just 17.8 in the Finals, the largest discrepancy in history, according to the Elias Sports Bureau.

And after starring in the closing role against the Bulls, James scored just 18 points combined in the fourth quarter during the Finals, fueling talk about whether he can really be considered a player on the level of Jordan.

"Michael had three years at North Carolina with Dean Smith. That makes a big difference," Kerr said. "I think he was brought up at a time when there was probably better development at a young age in terms of coaching. I think LeBron is a product of the AAU system where you rely on your athleticism, you go and play 100 games a year but maybe you don't focus on your weaknesses and what you need to lock in on.

"As a result, fundamentally and technically LeBron has some flaws. He has to address those. If I were him I would spend all summer down on the low block shooting jump hooks and turnaround jump shots -- the entire summer."
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