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-   -   Nash not being an "alpha dog" (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f6/nash-not-being-alpha-dog-21289.html)

Someguy again 11-24-2011 11:34 AM

Nash not being an "alpha dog"
 
I was reading shaq's book and the most interesting thing shaq said was that despite the amazing talent the phoenix suns had when he was there was that there was no alpha males on that team (and before) and that's why they failed to win a ring. shaq said that when nash would get mad he would down the court and make a three or dish out 5 assists. he did praise nash for being a team player but it wasn't enough, he needed the attitude of jordan or bird to really take his team to the next level. he also criticized grant hill and stoudemire not being those "alpha dogs" as well, that they were too professional and by keeping quiet and just letting their game speak, instead of letting both their mouths and performance on the court go off.

it really made me think about the importance of attitude in the playoffs, but then again take a look at the spurs, tim duncan isn't exactly an "alpha male".

thoughts?

LKeet6 11-24-2011 11:46 AM

interesting.

can imagine nash not being an alhpa but surprised stoud wasn't and what about shaq himself?

for me it's more about "chemistry." You could maybe get a bunch of "quiet," "professional" types who all enjoy playing together and like their coach and the system they're playing in and that can work great. Also, it can work where you have an alpha guy and then a bunch of followers who like/need to have someone leading them. You can also even have 2, 3, 4 alpha types who can even not get on great but push each other to greater things, jordan, pippen, rodman?

jeffb 11-24-2011 11:58 AM

Not shocking. Nash seems like a quiet leader and someone who leads on the floor with his play. But he certainly doesn't appear to be the most vocal of players.

INSIDER 11-24-2011 01:43 PM

so why didnt shaq be that "alpha male" and lead the team then?

LKeet6 11-24-2011 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INSIDER (Post 580687)
so why didnt shaq be that "alpha male" and lead the team then?

yeah, that's what i said!

jeffb 11-24-2011 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INSIDER (Post 580687)
so why didnt shaq be that "alpha male" and lead the team then?

Yeah isn't that the main reason he was brought in, experience + leadership? Then again he wasn't there that long and he likely didn't want to step on Nash/Amare's toes. Although that doesn't sound like Shaq.

box92 11-24-2011 02:48 PM

he was busy running into his team bench :D

ValanciunasFanboy 11-24-2011 02:53 PM

Neither was Hakeem, yet he kicked Shaq's butt in the Finals. Or David Robinson. Or Timmie. Or am I misunderstanding what an "alpha male" means here?

I still believe Suns would be champions if not for Sarver.
Give them Mickey Arison, or Dan Gilbert, or Jerry Buss - any of those owners Shaq was lucky to play for.
It was soooooooooo close. I'm not even talking about the Amare injuries, the suspension against Spurs and stuff like that - that is unfortunate but that shit happens.
However, selling off the draft picks and letting Joe Johnson go, that's unforgivable, and that's what eventually cost them a title or even several.

carp 11-24-2011 03:08 PM

You guys are missing the point.... geez.... they needed Nash to be like Bosh in order to get over the hump... pound your chest, scream, dance it up..... that's how alpha dogs get it done.

Yes, I'm being facetious, but Shaq is being somewhat contradictory. Granted, maybe he didn't think Bosh was the guy to be the alpha dog on Miami, but whos' to say Grant Hill should have been in Phoenix?

dfunkie1 11-24-2011 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValanciunasFanboy (Post 580708)
Neither was Hakeem, yet he kicked Shaq's butt in the Finals. Or David Robinson. Or Timmie. Or am I misunderstanding what an "alpha male" means here?


i'm curious to how hakeem, robinson and timmie wouldn't be considered 'alpha males' in any context. because they're nice and respectful? they got to their level of greatness by kicking the shit out of their opponents. all three were very demanding vocally and controlling on both sides of the ball. i think this is where nash, amare and hill lacked. they didn't demand and control, they just played.

LKeet6 11-24-2011 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackson Filth (Post 580710)
i'm curious to how hakeem, robinson and timmie wouldn't be considered 'alpha males' in any context. because they're nice and respectful? they got to their level of greatness by kicking the shit out of their opponents. all three were very demanding vocally and controlling on both sides of the ball. i think this is where nash, amare and hill lacked. they didn't demand and control, they just played.

i kind of see your point that u could argue hakeen, robinson and duncan are alpha type personalities by like i said earlier i'm not sure u need that to win a title.

dfunkie1 11-24-2011 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INSIDER (Post 580687)
so why didnt shaq be that "alpha male" and lead the team then?

think hakeem as a raptor. he was just there taking their money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LKeet6 (Post 580720)
i kind of see your point that u could argue hakeen, robinson and duncan are alpha type personalities by like i said earlier i'm not sure u need that to win a title.

you need someone to take over and demand that everyone else follows you doing it. look at how dirk played last year. if it didn't take him 15 years to act as he acted and played how he played, this wouldn't have been his first NBA championship.

carp 11-24-2011 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackson Filth (Post 580721)
think hakeem as a raptor. he was just there taking their money.



you need someone to take over and demand that everyone else follows you doing it. look at how dirk played last year. if it didn't take him 15 years to act as he acted and played how he played, this wouldn't have been his first NBA championship.

yes cause it's easy to win championships.

dfunkie1 11-24-2011 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carp (Post 580722)
yes cause it's easy to win championships.

where did i imply that it's easy to win championships?

LKeet6 11-24-2011 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackson Filth (Post 580721)
think hakeem as a raptor. he was just there taking their money.



you need someone to take over and demand that everyone else follows you doing it. look at how dirk played last year. if it didn't take him 15 years to act as he acted and played how he played, this wouldn't have been his first NBA championship.

hmmmm, not sure i completely agree with that. Team game and all that.

ValanciunasFanboy 11-24-2011 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackson Filth (Post 580710)
i'm curious to how hakeem, robinson and timmie wouldn't be considered 'alpha males' in any context. because they're nice and respectful? they got to their level of greatness by kicking the shit out of their opponents. all three were very demanding vocally and controlling on both sides of the ball. i think this is where nash, amare and hill lacked. they didn't demand and control, they just played.

i think you'd say the same things about Nash if he did win.
The only bit that may not apply to him is the "both sides of the ball" part.
Is that the defining part?
Either way, I don't think Shaq's talking about D there. I think he's talking about taking over on offense and getting vocal with opponents. Unlike Nash, who keeps playing his game, i.e. "makes a three and gets 5 passes" or Grant Hill who's too "professional".

I think "alpha dog" cliche is overused and it's way too closely associated with Jordan personality in general. Very often in the media, you aren't an alpha dog unless you are a dick and you take last shots.

carp 11-24-2011 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackson Filth (Post 580727)
where did i imply that it's easy to win championships?

with this:

Quote:

if it didn't take him 15 years to act as he acted and played how he played, this wouldn't have been his first NBA championship.
maybe it wasn't your intent, but it's a logical leap.

dfunkie1 11-24-2011 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValanciunasFanboy (Post 580732)
i think you'd say the same things about Nash if he did win.
The only bit that may not apply to him is the "both sides of the ball" part.
Is that the defining part?
Either way, I don't think Shaq's talking about D there. I think he's talking about taking over on offense and getting vocal with opponents. Unlike Nash, who keeps playing his game, i.e. "makes a three and gets 5 passes" or Grant Hill who's too "professional".

I think "alpha dog" cliche is overused and it's way too closely associated with Jordan personality in general. Very often in the media, you aren't an alpha dog unless you are a dick and you take last shots.

i agree with the typical impression of what one would imagine as an alpha dog (kevin garnett douchebagness), i just don't think shaq is using it in that context when he's taking about the likes of nash, hill and amare. i'm sure there was probably more to the quote than the little tidbit we were given. it's a little vague.

dfunkie1 11-24-2011 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carp (Post 580734)
with this:



maybe it wasn't your intent, but it's a logical leap.

it's not a logical leap. you annoy me, so please don't initiate discussions by responding to my posts. i'd rather save the mods the trouble of editing my honesty.

d00little 11-24-2011 06:24 PM

I just finished reading the book and I believe what he said was that Nash was an alpha, but not a dog. Shaq comes up with all sorts of weird descriptions, calling Kobe a scientific dog, Lebron and himself freak of nature dogs. He describes Kobe, DWade, Lebron, Dwight and Blake Griffin as salad eaters, as opposed to himself, ZBo and Kevin Love who were meat eaters (or something like that).

The reason why Shaq wasn't an alpha dog was that by the time he left Miami he was chronically injured. He also admits that he was over the hill and primarily just hired help. He partly blames Pat Riley and the Miami training staff for making him more susceptible to injury with their training methods. He credits the Phoenix training staff with helping him get back to health.

Shaq would definitely say that Tim Duncan is an alpha male. He described that he could get in most guy's heads, but he could say anything to Timmy but he wouldn't get angry, he would just come back down the court and score in your face. Also described Hakeem was like that too.

He was largely complimentary to Kobe, really crediting his dedication. He said he always saw him practicing, even walking down the halls without a ball in his hand he would be practicing moves. Said when Kobe got as good as him there wasn't room for two alphas.

Described Penny as kind of a d-bag and that his insistence on being paid more than Shaq was partly what drove him out of Orlando. The Orlando ownership were at first not willing to give Shaq the same contracts as CWebb and JHoward because Penny wanted to be the highest paid on the team.


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