March Madness and its 'Free" Labour
Old 03-20-2014, 01:28 AM   #1 (permalink)
enjoying having the keys to destiny

perusing ancient database
 
ClingRap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The far side of the Universe.
Posts: 1,895
Representing:
Default March Madness and its 'Free" Labour

I must say, I'm in full support of this. Peel away the draft class, which is .5% of the players involved in the tournament, and you've got a group of guys who may or may not strike a deal overseas. TBH, this is yet another example of "for the love of the game" logic being twisted to keep the INSANE revenues streaming away from the people who create it.

NCAA tournament strike: The opening Thursday of March Madness is the perfect time for college basketball players to walk off the court.
ClingRap is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2014, 03:42 AM   #2 (permalink)
the gat'll killya quicker, when I'm drunk off the liquor

The Mara sisters are hot!
 
Bill Haverchuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,934
Representing:
Default

I agree with what you're saying, Cling.

And whenever I hear an argument about how these players are "lucky" to receive the education and benefits of a scholarship, I find quite a few of "benefits" to be weak.

For starters, some of these schools are shit, and some students go there strictly to play ball; the classes are an afterthought and a hoop to jump through to keep them on the court. And, for those particular students, the $100K in scholarship funding the student receives, won't actually make a huge difference in their career earnings. So if you look at it from the perspective that they are given 25K a year for their services (assuming they stick for the full 4 years), they are making less than they could be by doing construction straight out of high school or some other useful job that pays a decent wage.

Then you have situations at schools that do offer a solid education, but the student is taking a bullshit schedule of classes designed so that they can just pass. Again, the degree is pretty much an afterthought and won't necssary add THAT much value to their future earnings. Again, the scholarship funding, even if it is worth more than 100K or 200K, might sound nice, but really it's just covering tuition that is over inflated anyway, if the student is doing a bullshit Arts degree. I mean, how many of these guys major in "communication". Like seriously, it seems like over 50% of NCAA athletes major in that. There has go to be a reason.

Then, of course, you have the sad situations where athletes get hurt and their injuries have longer term implications that are not fully covered by medical/health insurance programs, assuming they're covered at all. Some of them might get immediate assitance and coverage through the school, especially if they are an important player with a high likelihood of recovery. But I have heard horror stories of Canadian NCAA athletes who were essentially abandoned by their schools after an injury, and thankfully had Canada to return to. What about the poor american bastards from families of humble means? In that regard, many of these players take on all the risk (cost of future injuries), while the school takes home all the profits earnings.
Bill Haverchuck is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2014, 04:16 AM   #3 (permalink)
threes and free throws

Senior Member
 
Metallikid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,937
Representing:
Default

I agree; I think people just have a hard time with the amateur/professional dichotomy. We need some in-between for the NCAA and while I don't know what that is, I can say I don't like going down the path of making them have contracts just like a pro sports league as that would create some inherent conflicts of interests. If anything each player who makes the team should be given the same amount, so as not to definitively demarcate value in that area of the sport (varsity) where equality between students and athletes is paramount. That would also create a good incentive for the players who are on the fence about entering the draft to stay in college where they'll be guaranteed some money and perhaps more of an education.
Metallikid is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2014, 11:43 AM   #4 (permalink)
a baller

Senior Member
 
bjjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,227
Representing:
Default

If you want to make money playing basketball right away don't choose to go to college. There are other options if your skills are in demand.

It would be cool if some highschool phenoms in Canada would play one year in the NBL, make $50m and learn under Micheal Ray Richardson before heading to the NBA.
bjjs is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2014, 12:05 PM   #5 (permalink)
Is playing the dude disguised as another dude

Moderator

 
Shadowfax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: 5th Dimension
Posts: 10,042
Representing:
Default

I would love to see these kids walk off the court...but alas, there's not a snowball's chance in hell that it'll happen
Shadowfax is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2014, 01:03 PM   #6 (permalink)
payin Dwyane Wade

Senior Member
 
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4,533
Representing:
Default

$40,000 a year scholarship is not nothing.
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2014, 01:26 PM   #7 (permalink)
saying Go Bucks, Raptors, 49ers, Reds and Blue Jackets!

Senior Member
 
RaptorsandBuckeye FaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 4,853
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu View Post
$40,000 a year scholarship is not nothing.
They also get free room , free meals, and money to spend monthly on whatever they want.


Should they get a little more? Yes. But there is a lot of things that needs to be taken care of, it is not easy just to make a #.
RaptorsandBuckeye FaN is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2014, 02:30 PM   #8 (permalink)
enjoying having the keys to destiny

perusing ancient database
 
ClingRap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The far side of the Universe.
Posts: 1,895
Representing:
Default

You guys (except Bill and Metal) are missing the entire point to this article. As someone who works in the University as a contract instructor, there is little security. This was evidenced last year with the whole Kevin Ware debacle. The University and the fans expect these players to simply accept the ideology that in exchange for their efforts, a University education is an adequate reward, skirting the wider issue of where the wealth is being distributed. It doesn't take much but look at salary distribution across American Universities. All of the money the NCAA makes gets redistributed hierarchically to the "big" schools, basically making sure that you have a tiered system where lower division schools stay that way. Also, the money that goes to the respective Universities rarely finds its way back into improving the overall teaching and learning environment of the University, despite claims that it does (the Calhoun rant at a reporter a couple of years ago). Most of the money goes to paying exorbitant administrative salaries, while about 70% of the teaching workload is performed by people like me, highly trained and educated experts who should accept lowly working conditions and shit pay because it's your vocation, and asking for a fair wage (whatever that might be) is out of the questions.
Why is it so radical to simply demand that those producing the labour that generates the profit for the institution get at least a 50/50 stake in it. Right now the NCAA is keeping all of it, and oh, Universities are still public institutions, so the idea that the NCAA is providing all of the resources for their players is ludicrous. That's on the taxpayer.
ClingRap is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2014, 02:48 PM   #9 (permalink)
LX
present minded

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,935
Representing:
Default

It's hard for me to believe that the current structure will continue to stand all that much longer. The amount of money involved is just too insane. It would be one thing if it was just the ncaa making big profits off the backs of it's players, but when you consider all the other corporate entities that feed off of players that get no share in something that simply wouldn't happen without them, it's nuts.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2014, 03:33 PM   #10 (permalink)
a baller

Senior Member
 
bjjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,227
Representing:
Default

It's amateur sport. If they want to be professional basketball players, their are options.

What is complete bullshit, is the NBA age limit forcing kids to play in college if they want adequate coaching in NA, which I'm sure is directly influenced by the big money in the NCAA.

That is the problem. If a kid is 18 and can make 3 million a year playing in the NBA, he should be allowed to do so. The age limit is bullshit.
bjjs is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2014, 04:18 PM   #11 (permalink)
LX
present minded

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,935
Representing:
Default

It's more than amateur sport though. It's an enormous commercial enterprise. I don't see why there can't be a little bit of balance towards proper compensation that doesn't require a choice to play for millions as a pro. Not to mention that the option to play as a pro only effects a fraction of all players involved.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-20-2014, 04:47 PM   #12 (permalink)
a baller

Senior Member
 
bjjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,227
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
It's more than amateur sport though. It's an enormous commercial enterprise. I don't see why there can't be a little bit of balance towards proper compensation that doesn't require a choice to play for millions as a pro. Not to mention that the option to play as a pro only effects a fraction of all players involved.
What kind of compensation are you suggesting anyways because I'm not sure how it would work; their is a ginormous difference between Andrew Wiggins and the the guys at the end of the bench for Wofford

Most NCAA players aren't playing college basketball for an NBA career. It's the one and doners like Wiggins who are getting levered by the NCAA.

I can't blame the NCAA for creating a machine that works very very well. That's the world we live in. The fact that the players aren't being paid, to me just means there is a greater responsibility for the NCAA to spend that money in a responsible manner so that it is benefitting many people instead of a few.

Last edited by bjjs; 03-20-2014 at 04:52 PM.
bjjs is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2014, 07:54 AM   #13 (permalink)
A True Diamond In The Rough

Senior Member
 
The Diamond Scorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Pluto
Posts: 2,769
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjjs View Post
It's amateur sport. If they want to be professional basketball players, their are options.

What is complete bullshit, is the NBA age limit forcing kids to play in college if they want adequate coaching in NA, which I'm sure is directly influenced by the big money in the NCAA.

That is the problem. If a kid is 18 and can make 3 million a year playing in the NBA, he should be allowed to do so. The age limit is bullshit.
Absolutely agree with this ^^^
The Diamond Scorpion is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2014, 09:23 AM   #14 (permalink)
enjoying having the keys to destiny

perusing ancient database
 
ClingRap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The far side of the Universe.
Posts: 1,895
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjjs View Post
What kind of compensation are you suggesting anyways because I'm not sure how it would work; their is a ginormous difference between Andrew Wiggins and the the guys at the end of the bench for Wofford


Quote:
The fact that the players aren't being paid, to me just means there is a greater responsibility for the NCAA to spend that money in a responsible manner so that it is benefitting many people instead of a few.
You just answered your own question. This question is becoming the touchstone question of our time. Why is wealth so unevenly distributed? People love Universal Health Care because its a model that is about wealth being evenly distributed. People work and pay shitloads of taxes, and so they should receive something essential for it, the wealth they create they should also receive. Players from Wiggins all the way down the bench on Wofford should all receive the fiscal benefits of the wealth they create for the corporations, school, boosters, and gamblers. It really is a question of ideology. If it isn't ludicrous for an 18 year old's labour to be valued at millions of dollars, then I don't think it's ludicrous for that same 18 year old to be able to share in the wealth they're creating for others. And no, a scholarship largely funded by taxpayers isn't an adequate remuneration.
ClingRap is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2014, 10:14 AM   #15 (permalink)
a baller

Senior Member
 
bjjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,227
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClingRap View Post
You just answered your own question. This question is becoming the touchstone question of our time. Why is wealth so unevenly distributed? People love Universal Health Care because its a model that is about wealth being evenly distributed. People work and pay shitloads of taxes, and so they should receive something essential for it, the wealth they create they should also receive. Players from Wiggins all the way down the bench on Wofford should all receive the fiscal benefits of the wealth they create for the corporations, school, boosters, and gamblers. It really is a question of ideology. If it isn't ludicrous for an 18 year old's labour to be valued at millions of dollars, then I don't think it's ludicrous for that same 18 year old to be able to share in the wealth they're creating for others. And no, a scholarship largely funded by taxpayers isn't an adequate remuneration.
There's other ways to spend the money responsibly then pay the players. For the vast majority of players, it is in no way labour, it's a voluntary extra-curricular activity. If they want fiscal benefits, go overseas. Go to the NBA. Go play for the people who are willing to pay you money.

Giving a kid $200,000 a year because he's a deep bench player on an NCAA team is ludicrous. Giving him $50,000 a year is ludicrous. Only the top 5% of the guys playing would be able to make money in the open market, going to Europe, the NBA or wherever.

Making college basketball professional basketball, would ruin college basketball.

Last edited by bjjs; 03-21-2014 at 10:29 AM.
bjjs is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2014, 12:13 PM   #16 (permalink)
elT
brainfarting keyboard eater

Dwane Casey kicks ass!
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 566
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Making college basketball professional basketball, would ruin college basketball.
YEah, let's protect everyone but the players. Protect the game, the coaches, the universities, the gamblers...everyone but the players.

And what happens if somebody very talented gets career ending injury during NCAA career and can never play pro basketball?

If it is non pro sport, why is NCAA selling the TV rights, tickets and stuff?

The players should get something. Set some minimum equal for every player on any team participating, top it off with additional money based on their playing time and grades, add bonuses for tournament success and you've got something to start with. The scholarship only is bullshit.
elT is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2014, 01:06 PM   #17 (permalink)
LX
present minded

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,935
Representing:
Default

I think an equal minimum across the board that takes a significant jump for any player that is recruited would be reasonable. I don't think they need to make it complicated or allow money to become any kind of focus, but rather just look to bring the remotest sense of fairness into the equation. The dude that discovers a 12-year old star in the making stands to make a good load of money, while that kid gets to play under some romantic pretence of amateur athletics that is ultimately false to the core, and in which the odds are stacked against them for ever getting a big payday. They should at the very least have something they can fall back on to some degree.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2014, 01:23 PM   #18 (permalink)
a baller

Senior Member
 
bjjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,227
Representing:
Default

it's not false to the core. Most the guys playing in the tournament are going to school for school. Their is no romatic pretense in their heads about being professional basketball players, and their was definitely no romantic pretense in their heads about being paid to play college basketball.

That 12 year old star-in-the making is a big exception to your typical NCAA athlete who couldn't make a dime trying to play pro basketball.

ET - what happens is they have a chance at getting a university education. That's alot more than some people get. That's worth like $50,000 to $500,000 depending on what school/program they go to. If they don't want that as compensation, please go play in a pro league. I like the pro leagues - go London Lightning. Would love to see 18 year old up and comers in the NBL before they go the NBA. That would be huge.

That's why the Age limit sucks - it's protecting the NCAA's product when their shouldn't be protection.

Last edited by bjjs; 03-21-2014 at 01:27 PM.
bjjs is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2014, 01:30 PM   #19 (permalink)
LX
present minded

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,935
Representing:
Default

I think very few non-athletes go to school just to go to school. It's all about money. Take a look at the idea of paying 500,000 for an education. That is absolutely ludicrous. But it's not about the education. It's about cashing the ticket to a good paying career. Corporatism and capitalism have removed the veneer of values once in place within learning institutions. Remove those influences and corrupting values, and i'm with you entirely.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2014, 01:36 PM   #20 (permalink)
saying Go Bucks, Raptors, 49ers, Reds and Blue Jackets!

Senior Member
 
RaptorsandBuckeye FaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 4,853
Representing:
Default

Here is some of the problems. Everybody wants it to be "Fair" but it will never be "fair" for everyone.

1. Only two sports, bring in any revenue to school, and that is college football and basketball. IF you start paying players in this basketball/football, do you think the Hockey, Tennis, Baseball etc programs are going to not fight for their players to be paid?

2. The above will lead to university getting rid of other sport programs(Some university already get rid of programs they can't support them anymore). So now that is less scholarship opportunities for other sports athletes. Is that fair for other sports programs/student athletes in not as well known sports? If that happens, people are going to start complaining that universities are not fair to other sports programs and only care about the big 2 sports.

3. Title IX. Women sports. I believe it is Title IX or whatever Title it is. If you start paying the men, you're going to have to paid the women and women sports bring in 0/negative revenue for most universities.


That is just a little bit into it.


Do they deserve some more money? Yes. And it will happen sooner than later. I'll say in the next 5 years they will get something else. Not a lot but something. But it is going to take time to figure all the "little" things out before it happens.

The things I think should happen already is:

A. Basketball should be like Baseball. You can go pro if you want to out of HS and make a living. But if you go to college, you go 3 years. Will this happen? No because the NBA wants to protect itself and use college as the development program.

B. Players should be able to market themselves. You sell my jersey #? I get some money for that. They should be able to do autograph signings for money. Etc. The little things like that should be added and keeps the "star" players happy.

Last edited by RaptorsandBuckeye FaN; 03-21-2014 at 01:44 PM.
RaptorsandBuckeye FaN is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24