Lockout official - Page 30
Old 11-04-2011, 09:26 AM   #581 (permalink)
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a lengthy excerpt from coon's take on decertification:

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By decertifying, the players would be throwing a counterpunch after being on the ropes for many months. They already have conceded 4.5 percent of league revenues -- moving from 57 percent in the last agreement to a proposed 52.5 percent -- along with accepting many system changes that favor the owners. Meanwhile, the owners' hard-line stance has hardly swayed in the two-plus years the sides have negotiated.

The mere threat of decertification would provide the players with much-needed leverage in the labor dispute. Anticipating such a move, the league filed a federal lawsuit, calling it an "impermissible pressure tactic," and saying it has had a "direct, immediate and harmful" effect on the negotiations. The suit seeks a declaration from the court that the lockout does not violate antitrust laws in the event the union decertifies.

A hearing took place this week in Manhattan, N.Y., in which the union asked the judge to dismiss the suit. The judge has asked for additional briefs from both parties before rendering a decision.

Decertification owes its power to the uneasy truce between labor laws and antitrust laws. The antitrust laws prevent employers from banding together to restrain competition. For example, if all the banks in a city agreed that they would not pay their tellers more than $30,000 per year, it would almost certainly be illegal case of "price fixing." Likewise, if the banks laid off all their tellers and refused to rehire them unless they agreed to take a pay cut to $30,000, it would almost certainly be an illegal "group boycott." These types of agreements -- which restrain competition -- are addressed by the antitrust laws.

However, collective bargaining encourages the very type of behavior that the antitrust laws make illegal. To resolve this inherent conflict, there is something called the "non-statutory labor exemption," which shields collective bargaining agreements from attack under antitrust law. This protection extends even after the agreement expires -- so long as a bargaining relationship continues to exist.

Here's the key to the whole process: This bargaining relationship continues to exist as long as the union is in place. If the players dissolve the union, the bargaining relationship dissolves with it. Without the bargaining relationship, the league is no longer shielded from antitrust laws.

Much of the economic structure of the NBA -- such as the salary cap, maximum salaries, rookie-scale salaries and the luxury tax -- could be challenged under the antitrust laws as a form of price fixing if there was no union. The lockout itself could be challenged as a group boycott.

In many normal businesses, employers fight unionization and would be thrilled if the employees decided to get rid of their union. But in the sports world, employers benefit from the existence of the union -- so the employees can use the dissolution of the union as a threat.

So far the NBA players have kept the dispute within the realm of labor law by continuing to negotiate as a union. If the players dissolve the union -- either by decertifying or through a related process called a disclaimer of interest -- they surrender their collective bargaining rights, lift the shield of protection provided by the non-statutory labor exemption, and shift the venue from labor law to antitrust law
NBA -- Decertification threat a strong message - ESPN
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Old 11-04-2011, 11:16 AM   #582 (permalink)
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And then there was this from Hunter: "I don't think there should ever be a circumstance where owners make the same or more than players."
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Old 11-04-2011, 02:12 PM   #583 (permalink)
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A group of between 10 and 14 owners, led by Michael Jordan, is promising to oppose any deal that gives players more than 50 percent of revenue.

This group of owners wants the players' share of BRI not to exceed 47 percent and was upset when the NBA proposed a 50-50 split.

A majority of owners are believed to support a 50-50 deal.

“There’s no one who’s interested in going above 50 percent,” said the person who has spoken with the owners.

Read more: Jordan Leads Hardline Opposition To Giving Players More Than 50 Percent - RealGM Wiretap
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Old 11-04-2011, 02:38 PM   #584 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jeffb View Post
.
Dumb
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Old 11-04-2011, 02:47 PM   #585 (permalink)
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To be honest, I'd say very smart.
Agents leak that 50 players want 52% at any cost.
Stern leaks that half the owners won't even give the 50.

We all know how this is going to end. Players will fold. Owners will win.
It will be a 50-50 unless owners start feeling generous and give a 51-49 for more system concessions.
So I'd rather see the owners showing strength right now. So the players fold faster. And we can have some basketball.
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Old 11-04-2011, 03:00 PM   #586 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ValanciunasFanboy View Post
To be honest, I'd say very smart.
Agents leak that 50 players want 52% at any cost.
Stern leaks that half the owners won't even give the 50.

We all know how this is going to end. Players will fold. Owners will win.
It will be a 50-50 unless owners start feeling generous and give a 51-49 for more system concessions.
So I'd rather see the owners showing strength right now. So the players fold faster. And we can have some basketball.
Until the CBA expires next time around...
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Old 11-04-2011, 03:07 PM   #587 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ValanciunasFanboy View Post
To be honest, I'd say very smart.
Agents leak that 50 players want 52% at any cost.
Stern leaks that half the owners won't even give the 50.

We all know how this is going to end. Players will fold. Owners will win.
It will be a 50-50 unless owners start feeling generous and give a 51-49 for more system concessions.
So I'd rather see the owners showing strength right now. So the players fold faster. And we can have some basketball.
I was actually responding to the quote from hunter.....
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Old 11-04-2011, 03:27 PM   #588 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
I was actually responding to the quote from hunter.....
It's almost impossible for a guy to be out front like he is and not come off as being quite dumb regularly. It's pretty easy for Stern to stand out in front of relatively anonymous owners and simply claim that no money is being made and that small market teams need a better shot at competing, while players clearly make good money and fight for the right to leave small market teams high and dry. That is until the same scenario repeats itself a few years down the road, but it's such a foolproof dynamic that it just doesn't matter how ridiculous the suggested positions end up being when the test of time comes into play.
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Old 11-04-2011, 04:09 PM   #589 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by LX View Post
It's almost impossible for a guy to be out front like he is and not come off as being quite dumb regularly. It's pretty easy for Stern to stand out in front of relatively anonymous owners and simply claim that no money is being made and that small market teams need a better shot at competing, while players clearly make good money and fight for the right to leave small market teams high and dry. That is until the same scenario repeats itself a few years down the road, but it's such a foolproof dynamic that it just doesn't matter how ridiculous the suggested positions end up being when the test of time comes into play.
Solid perspective.
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Old 11-04-2011, 05:08 PM   #590 (permalink)
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I was actually responding to the quote from hunter.....
ahh.
true.
It pisses me off how Hunter keeps comparing players' salaries to owners' revenues.
Compare salaries to profits which right now are negative.
Players bring home the salaries.
Owners don't bring home the revenues, they spend the revenues so players can sleep in 5 star hotels and fly a private jet.
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Old 11-04-2011, 05:14 PM   #591 (permalink)
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Until the CBA expires next time around...
Yes, but our life's too short to worry about CBA 10 years from now.
I think we worry way too much about the current CBA as it is.

Besides, not like anything can change what's coming.
Owners will ask more, players will ask more, owners will win (unless the league will be just shamelessly profitable), same as always.
So, why worry.
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Old 11-05-2011, 07:44 AM   #592 (permalink)
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here's another look at this thing from an economist. This is his conclusion after explaining that the BRI split already takes care of the losses and that the system is most important to the average player rather than the stars.

LINK - grantland

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The owners have already been given enough concessions to address their concerns, and are largely independently wealthy anyway, so why are they continuing to draw a line in the sand? Because economics is a sideshow to them. Some owners are willing to cave. Micky Arison, the Heat owner, was fined $500,000 for intimating that he was willing to make a deal and that other owners were holding up the process. Mark Cuban used his brother to get the message out there that the owners would move to 51 percent. Yet other owners, most notably Dan Gilbert and Paul Allen, won't budge.

Does anyone really believe that Paul Allen, worth $13.2 billion, is holding up this deal for a few million dollars out of his pocket? Of course not. The reality is that there is not, nor will there ever be, parity in the NBA. You need an elite superstar to win a championship, and there are maybe 10 of those in the NBA. Parity is simply being used to hide their true intent.

The owners aren't holding out for parity. They are holding out because of indifference and vindictiveness. Financially, they have so much money and so many alternate sources of revenue that it doesn't matter if their teams play or not. And since most owners' teams aren't going to win anyway, the motivation just isn't there to cave. For certain owners, like Dan Gilbert, this is taken to an extreme. The man who penned the Comic Sans diatribe against LeBron James would love nothing more than to slice a year off James' championship window in Miami.

So, the players must cave, right? They need paychecks and the owners appear indifferent. The short answer is yes. Economically speaking, they should cave immediately. They are going to lose more money from missing games than they will lose from taking a worse deal. And the players will eventually cave. There will be basketball again. But it's the system that causes reluctance. Sure enough, it's being reported that the owners are not offering 50 percent with a system the players covet, but are instead offering a choice: (1) a 50 percent split with a restrictive system, OR (2) a 47 percent split with a non-restrictive system. So, the players are in a situation where they have already lost, already given so much, and already covered the owners' losses (some of which are unrelated to players' salaries), and they now must choose between keeping more raw money or protecting that middle class of players. Not nearly as simple as dividing a $4 billion pie.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:29 PM   #593 (permalink)
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When is their meeting taking place today?
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Old 11-05-2011, 04:14 PM   #594 (permalink)
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When is their meeting taking place today?
according to some folks on realgm, it started at 4pm

Edit: Meting actually started at 5, its on the wiretap

Last edited by box92; 11-05-2011 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 11-06-2011, 01:41 AM   #595 (permalink)
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@KBergCBS Ken Berger
NBA talks are over for the night. "No deal," a source says.
No surprise here
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Old 11-06-2011, 01:52 AM   #596 (permalink)
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I CAN'T TAKE MUCH MORE OF THIS!


Last edited by Dark Knight; 11-06-2011 at 01:56 AM.
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Old 11-06-2011, 02:26 AM   #597 (permalink)
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^^^^ LOL!
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Old 11-06-2011, 03:20 AM   #598 (permalink)
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Commissioner David Stern gave NBA players an offer and a deadline: Accept a chance to earn up to 51 percent of basketball-related income by Wednesday or get ready for a deal that’s a whole lot worse.

He wouldn’t call it an ultimatum, but it didn’t sure sit well with the union.

“The players will not be intimidated,” attorney Jeffrey Kessler said Saturday. “They want to play, they want a season, but they are not going to sacrifice the future of all NBA players under these types of threats of intimidation. It’s not happening on Derek Fisher’s(notes) watch; it’s not happening on Billy Hunter’s watch; it’s not happening on the watch of this executive committee.”

Kessler said the proposal was really 50.2 percent for the players and called the chance of them ever reaching 51 percent a “fraud” and an “illusion.”

Whatever. If players don’t agree to it by Wednesday, Stern said they would get a deal that would guarantee them just 47 percent of BRI and call for a flex salary cap.

“We hope that this juxtaposition will cause the union to assess its position and accept the deal,” Stern said.


NBA players get new offer, and deadline to take it - NBA - Yahoo! Sports
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Old 11-06-2011, 08:33 AM   #599 (permalink)
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similar to the ultimatum given on the last cba? let's hope it works out the same. for gods sake he has given them more than 50 percent! the players would be dumb not to bite..
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Old 11-06-2011, 08:53 AM   #600 (permalink)
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similar to the ultimatum given on the last cba? let's hope it works out the same. for gods sake he has given them more than 50 percent! the players would be dumb not to bite..
nah from a players standpoint, 52.5 or 53 sounds good cause i know for sure after the current CBA contract their negotiating ends in the future, they will have to be playing for 50% each
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