Lockout official - Page 28
Old 10-29-2011, 05:44 PM   #541 (permalink)
T. Ross IS The Phantom Menace.

Lackey
 
Ammo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Mighty North Tundra
Posts: 3,525
Representing:
Raptors

Quote:
Originally Posted by halphbreedballer View Post
I'll put my foot in my mouth regarding my last post about the lockout...

But as far as BC goes I hope they trade away there expiring contracts for more picks next season...
I don't blame you. Who would think they would walk away? I think losing 1/4 of the season means the players have lost $450 mil in pay. Gone! Nothing else needs to be said about that!

And I was just about to put my foot in my mouth by saying they don't need yet a 3rd high draft pick. they can't get #1 (Drummond?) unless they win it in the lottery, but a guy can dream about everything else.....

One trade...Jose's expiring for a top 15 pick and filler (a back up wing?).

Val/free agent C(McGee, Kaman and Hibbert are FA's in 2012)/Alabi
Bargnani/Davis/Amir
Harrison Barnes(3rd pick?)/James Johnson
Demar/Sonny
J. Bayless/Teague or Kabongo (around 15th pick)/Round 2 pick (Marshall or Josiah Turner)

If any position is showing failure, you move one of the PFs and upgrade.

They'd be under the cap for a good while even if it's low.

Ooooh. The Jose fans are mad now. And the Sonny and Barganani haters are even madder that they are still on the team!

Last edited by Ammo; 10-29-2011 at 06:57 PM.
Ammo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2011, 10:31 PM   #542 (permalink)
a nacho hound

Senior Member
 
Toby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: South of Portland, home of the Blazers
Posts: 5,020
Representing:
Default

The Nuggets have the Rookie of the Year. Now, he's the Rookie of squadoosh
Toby is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 07:20 AM   #543 (permalink)
chucking wood like a woodchuck would if a woodchuck could chuck wood

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 728
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammo View Post
One trade...Jose's expiring for a top 15 pick and filler (a back up wing?).
i think you are badly overrating Calderon here.
No lotto / bottom 15 team will want him. What for? Certainly not at a cost of a top 15 pick.

The only teams I see offering a pick for Calderon are Lakers, maybe Heat. But I'm not sure there are other pieces for the deal there.
ValanciunasFanboy is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 08:15 AM   #544 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummomd so people stop whining

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 73,478
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ValanciunasFanboy View Post
i think you are badly overrating Calderon here.
No lotto / bottom 15 team will want him. What for? Certainly not at a cost of a top 15 pick.

The only teams I see offering a pick for Calderon are Lakers, maybe Heat. But I'm not sure there are other pieces for the deal there.

Completely agree. Jose has amnesty written all over him. Unless they just decide to trade his ass next summer as an expiring if they think they can somehow get anything of value.
jeffb is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 08:27 AM   #545 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummomd so people stop whining

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 73,478
Representing:
Default




Quote:
The new N.B.A. labor deal is practically done. You wouldn't know it from the headlines, the dour news conferences or the apocalyptic rhetoric spilling from league officials. But the deal, in practical terms, is about 95 percent complete.

The N.B.A. and the players union have agreed on contract lengths and luxury-tax rates, trade rules and cap exceptions, and a host of oddly named provisions offering "amnesty" and "stretch payments" and less onerous "base-year" rules.
.

Quote:
Tentative agreements are already in place on the following major items:

¶ Luxury-tax rate: Teams will be charged $1.50 per $1 spent beyond a threshold, replacing the previous dollar-for-dollar tax, according to people who have seen the plan.

To further discourage spending, the tax will increase for every $5 million spent beyond the threshold: to $1.75 after $5 million, $2.25 after $10 million and $3 after $15 million.

Under this system, the Los Angeles Lakers would have paid $42.5 million in taxes last season, compared with $20 million under the old formula. (The rates could still change based on other tradeoffs.)

¶ Contract lengths: Players with “Bird” rights will be eligible for five-year deals, while others will be limited to four. The previous C.B.A. allowed for six-year (Bird) and five-year deals. The 1999 C.B.A. allowed for seven-year (Bird) and six-year deals.

¶ Raises: Annual raises will be reduced by several percentage points, possibly as low as 5 percent for Bird players and 3.5 percent for non-Bird players. The prior deal allowed raises as high as 10.5 percent (Bird) and 8 percent.

¶ Midlevel exception: It will start at $5 million, a decrease of $800,000. The contract length and annual raises attached to the exception remain under discussion.

¶ Amnesty clause: Each team will be permitted to waive one player, with pay — anytime during the life of the C.B.A. — and have his salary be exempt from the cap and the luxury tax. Its use will be limited to players already under contract as of July 1, 2011.

¶ Stretch exception: Teams will be permitted to stretch out payments to waived players, spreading out the cap hit, over several seasons. The payment schedule will be set by doubling the years left on the contract and adding one. (Thus a team waiving a player with two years left could pay him over five years.)
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/10/30...-a-big-one.xml

Last edited by jeffb; 10-30-2011 at 08:42 AM.
jeffb is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 08:48 AM   #546 (permalink)
T. Ross IS The Phantom Menace.

Lackey
 
Ammo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Mighty North Tundra
Posts: 3,525
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ValanciunasFanboy View Post
i think you are badly overrating Calderon here.
No lotto / bottom 15 team will want him. What for? Certainly not at a cost of a top 15 pick.

The only teams I see offering a pick for Calderon are Lakers, maybe Heat. But I'm not sure there are other pieces for the deal there.
I originally had Jose's expiring and Ed for a top 5 pick and filler, but I thought there might be a riot on the RF board.

But if you are really stuck in terms of salary cap and going nowhere, you might see great value in an expiring. And if you have a star/stars to keep you will need to find ways to pay under a tougher salary cap.

I think I magically left Kleiza off that team also. Surely we could pair Jose with him for, um.....um.......um.

Last edited by Ammo; 10-30-2011 at 10:03 AM.
Ammo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 12:02 PM   #547 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummomd so people stop whining

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 73,478
Representing:
Default

.

Quote:
My prediction, if you still want to hear it, is that there will be conversations over the weekend and another meeting next week to take another stab at this. There's too much to lose; too much at stake. That's what happened the last time things blew up, sending federal mediator George Cohen running for cover. That's what will happen again. More than enough of the deal has been negotiated already so that the next meeting really only requires two people: Stern and Hunter.

But those two people must have the authority to close the deal. On Friday, neither had it.

That's the only way it could possibly make sense to squander a chance to recoup two weeks of canceled games (worth about $400 million to the owners and players) and lose two weeks more (for a total of $800 million) by refusing to even attempt to close a two-point gap in basketball-related income (BRI).

Think of it another way: If Hunter had been willing to move from 52.5 percent to 51 percent Friday, that would've been a $60 million concession in Year One of the deal to get back the lost games worth $400 million -- a net gain of $340 million. Instead, the players decided it was better to lose the games, and thus $400 million, which made it a $740 million decision to walk out of the room without a deal.

If Stern had been willing to move from 50 percent and meet Hunter at 51, it would've been a $40 million concession for the owners to get their approximately $400 million share of the lost November games -- a net gain of $360 million. But instead of offering to make the economic move Stern had said Thursday night he was prepared to make, he decided it was better to lose the $400 million -- a net swing of $760 million. So collectively, Hunter and Stern cost their business $1.5 billion by walking away without a deal Friday.

Swell!

There is no rational way to explain this behavior, so there has to be something wrong. And the only answer is that neither Stern nor Hunter had the authority to negotiate beyond his established position.

No wonder the NBA is in such sorry shape, losing $300 million a year and destroying the interest of people who might consider spending money on their product some day with every illogical decision they make.

It's easy to figure out who is giving Stern his marching orders; he works for the owners, many of whom are going for a bloodbath in this negotiation instead of a rational victory. Given the scope of the owners' initial demands, the players have won a couple of surprising "victories" by holding onto guaranteed contracts and a $5 million mid-level exception and beating back the owners' pursuit of a hard team salary cap. But every other aspect of the deal that's been negotiated to this point is in favor of the owners: minimally, a $1.3 billion reduction in salaries over six years, shorter contracts, smaller raises, a more punitive luxury tax, and on and on.

But Stern has done what I warned him not to do. A lawyer by trade, he failed to see the sure victory of a plea bargain in his midst and stubbornly -- presumably not of his own free will -- decided to take this one to the jury, where everybody loses.

The one thing Stern remains empowered to do is own the spin game, and he did that masterfully again Friday by pinning the blame on Hunter for walking out. And as with most spin, there was an element of truth to Stern's account. He and deputy commissioner Adam Silver conveniently omitted the part when there was an opportunity -- both when Hunter was still in the room and after he left -- for Stern to communicate a willingness to make the economic move he'd said he was prepared to make. He didn't do it, he blamed Hunter, and he won the P.R. battle while failing to realize he's losing the war.

Even after letting Hunter leave the room, there was still more time for Stern to rein these negotiations back in.

After word first circulated that the talks had imploded again shortly after 4 p.m. ET, the two sides sat separately for at least 45 minutes before Hunter and union president Derek Fisher finally came downstairs to speak with reporters. Where did league negotiators think Hunter, a 69-year-old man with a bad back, was going so fast that they didn't have time to invite him back in the room to continue the talks? Were they under the mistaken impression they were negotiating against Usain Bolt, would've been halfway up the FDR Drive by the time Stern got out of his chair?

I asked Stern this: If Hunter hadn't left, would Stern have made the economic move he'd stated he was prepared to make? In his answer, he tried to say the league had moved Friday to 50 percent from 47 percent -- which the whole world knows hasn't been the owners' bargaining position since Oct. 4, when the talks last blew up over the BRI split.

Later, I asked Silver why the two sides wouldn't keep trying to close such a small gap, considering the mammoth losses that will result.

"I don't know," Silver said. "You're asking me. Billy said he would not go below 52 when he left. He didn't say, 'Do you want to split the difference?' He said, 'I will not go below 52.' "

"Did you say that?" I asked Silver.

"The negotiation ended when he said that," Silver said.

As in, they ended when the union's 69-year-old negotiator, you know, got up and Usain Bolted.

That was enough for me. Having already heard Silver say with a straight face that the good thing about this deal for the players would be that they'd make more money as revenues increased -- even though a 50-50 split would cut player salaries by $1.8 billion over six years -- it was time to use my brain for other purposes.

Which brings us to this: If Stern is getting his marching orders from the hard-line owners, who is preventing Hunter from being able to negotiate and close this deal? Who's cut his legs out from under him?

And Hunter himself provided the answer -- part of it publicly with the media and part of it privately in the negotiating room.

In explaining how the two sides got back to the bargaining table in the first place this week, Hunter said that after a staff meeting on Monday that "didn't go well at all," he was contacted by "third-party intermediaries who suggested that we get together." It wasn't clear who Hunter was referring to until Silver mentioned something the union's executive director had said in the meeting.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/story/1...-to-close-deal
jeffb is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 12:54 PM   #548 (permalink)
chucking wood like a woodchuck would if a woodchuck could chuck wood

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 728
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammo View Post
I think I magically left Kleiza off that team also. Surely we could pair Jose with him for, um.....um.......um.
I don't think Kleiza has much trade value either tbh.
Maybe more than Calderon since his salary is small and easy to trade, so maybe a deal for say Jermaine O'Neal's expiring and Semih Erden (or whatever that young Turkish guy's name) would work.
If he gets back completely healthy, then sure, he may be worth something. He's a pretty good 7-8th guy for a good team, and on a cheap contract.

Btw, Calderon will only become expiring in summer 2012. You probably know it, I just assumed you were talking about trades right after lockout before.
ValanciunasFanboy is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 01:36 PM   #549 (permalink)
sticking to his guns... is stuck to his guns...

Senior Member

 
DanH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 4,164
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Think of it another way: If Hunter had been willing to move from 52.5 percent to 51 percent Friday, that would've been a $60 million concession in Year One of the deal to get back the lost games worth $400 million -- a net gain of $340 million. Instead, the players decided it was better to lose the games, and thus $400 million, which made it a $740 million decision to walk out of the room without a deal.

If Stern had been willing to move from 50 percent and meet Hunter at 51, it would've been a $40 million concession for the owners to get their approximately $400 million share of the lost November games -- a net gain of $360 million. But instead of offering to make the economic move Stern had said Thursday night he was prepared to make, he decided it was better to lose the $400 million -- a net swing of $760 million. So collectively, Hunter and Stern cost their business $1.5 billion by walking away without a deal Friday.
That's hilarious. Those single year costs, over the 10 year agreement at 4% increase in revenue per year.... Considering last year's BRI was $3.817 billion, that means at 4% growth, the total revenue over 10 years would be $47.66 billion. That would mean each percentage point represents more like 477 million dollars! Meaning the 2.5% separating them is more like 1.192 billion dollars! Even at the 6 year mark, which may be an opt-out mark depending on who you believe, that would mean they are $658 million apart. So the math he does here is ridiculously misrepresenting the situation.
DanH is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 02:48 PM   #550 (permalink)
chucking wood like a woodchuck would if a woodchuck could chuck wood

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 728
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH View Post
That's hilarious. Those single year costs, over the 10 year agreement at 4% increase in revenue per year.... Considering last year's BRI was $3.817 billion, that means at 4% growth, the total revenue over 10 years would be $47.66 billion. That would mean each percentage point represents more like 477 million dollars! Meaning the 2.5% separating them is more like 1.192 billion dollars! Even at the 6 year mark, which may be an opt-out mark depending on who you believe, that would mean they are $658 million apart. So the math he does here is ridiculously misrepresenting the situation.
Indeed.

But what bothers me even more is how the article says that November games vs. no November games is a 760 mil net swing for the owners.

Yeah, right... When you don't have to pay for anything maybe.
Paying a skeleton staff vs. normal NBA expenses is slightly different.
When you account for that, it's not 'quite' a 760 mil losing swing.
More like a money saving swing, if we believe the owners.
So maybe it does make a little sense to hold out for an extra billion over 10 years.

Pretty weak math.
ValanciunasFanboy is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 05:19 PM   #551 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Membres supérieurs
 
DocHoliday99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Southern Alberta
Posts: 4,767
Representing:
Default

Even though labor talks broke apart on Friday, a new deal is 95 percent complete.

The NBA owners and the players union have agreed on contract lengths and luxury-tax rates, trade rules and cap exceptions, as well as several provisions lesser-known to casual fans such as "amnesty" and "base-year compensation."

In real terms, the NBA and NBPA are separated by 2.5 percent of BRI and $100 million per year. At one point, the sides were separated by 20 percent and hundreds of millions per year.

The final deal will, by any objective measure, heavily favor the owners when compared with deals reached in 1999 and 2005.



Read more: New Labor Deal 95 Percent Complete - RealGM Wiretap

Thought I'd throw it up, More traction in media - <crossed fingers> it's true

Last edited by DocHoliday99; 10-30-2011 at 05:24 PM.
DocHoliday99 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 05:21 PM   #552 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Membres supérieurs
 
DocHoliday99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Southern Alberta
Posts: 4,767
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ValanciunasFanboy View Post
Indeed.

But what bothers me even more is how the article says that November games vs. no November games is a 760 mil net swing for the owners.

Yeah, right... When you don't have to pay for anything maybe.
Paying a skeleton staff vs. normal NBA expenses is slightly different.
When you account for that, it's not 'quite' a 760 mil losing swing.
More like a money saving swing, if we believe the owners.
So maybe it does make a little sense to hold out for an extra billion over 10 years.

Pretty weak math.
Completely agree: the math in that was terribly weak - no sense of the real economics.
DocHoliday99 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2011, 06:36 PM   #553 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Membres supérieurs
 
DocHoliday99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Southern Alberta
Posts: 4,767
Representing:
Default

The league is going to keep all in line.....

The league office fined Heat owner Mickey Arison $500,000 for Friday comments he made on Twitter.

Arison seemed to break ranks with fellow owners, and the league executives who are negotiating directly with the union, on their insistence that the players take no more than 50% of basketball-related income. Arison later deleted the controversial Tweets.



Read more: Arison Fined Half Million For Dissenting Tweets - RealGM Wiretap
DocHoliday99 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2011, 06:48 PM   #554 (permalink)
a nacho hound

Senior Member
 
Toby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: South of Portland, home of the Blazers
Posts: 5,020
Representing:
Default

Half million? Didn't he watch his team play last year? That money is needed to hire a center, and finding a halfway decent point guard somewhere.
Toby is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2011, 07:25 PM   #555 (permalink)
chucking wood like a woodchuck would if a woodchuck could chuck wood

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 728
Representing:
Default

Tbh, I expected full million + the "extra sanctions" whatever that means.
It's one thing when that new Wizards owner makes a pretty innocent comment early in the negotiations on why the league needs a hard salary cap.
And they fine him.

It's another when Arison clearly tries to torpedo owners' stance by siding with the players because the owners voted against the Heat's position. Late in the negotiations, at a very crucial stage.
Arison deleting the tweet and trying to be the smart guy by quoting fans' tweet instead of writing his own, that doesn't excuse him at all.

Stern should've kicked Arison's butt here.
ValanciunasFanboy is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2011, 12:46 AM   #556 (permalink)
Follow @raptorsforum on twitter

Senior Member

 
box92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,305
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ValanciunasFanboy View Post
Tbh, I expected full million + the "extra sanctions" whatever that means.
It's one thing when that new Wizards owner makes a pretty innocent comment early in the negotiations on why the league needs a hard salary cap.
And they fine him.

It's another when Arison clearly tries to torpedo owners' stance by siding with the players because the owners voted against the Heat's position. Late in the negotiations, at a very crucial stage.
Arison deleting the tweet and trying to be the smart guy by quoting fans' tweet instead of writing his own, that doesn't excuse him at all.

Stern should've kicked Arison's butt here.
completely agree
box92 is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2011, 11:11 AM   #557 (permalink)
is.....

Tai-Pan
 
m5racer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,896
Representing:
Default

I have to be honest guys, trying to fit in a 82 games season still would be a real joke.

You cant honestly play back to back to back games and be competitive. Imagine the Raptors schedule Monday - NYK, Tuesday Boston, Wednesday Orlando, Friday Miami.....lol it would be more worth wile for us to just not play 11/12 season

or a more realistic look, our schedual has us playing SAS, LAL, CHI in February, Imagine if this was one of the instances where we played a x3 back to back.....that would be three very easy, yet hard to swallo losses.... time for kobe to put up another 81 point gamer, or is it Roses time to throw up 30+ assists in one game
m5racer is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2011, 11:48 AM   #558 (permalink)
Psi
Only likes Hockey with 'Fantasy' infront of it

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Mississauga
Posts: 1,856
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by m5racer View Post
I have to be honest guys, trying to fit in a 82 games season still would be a real joke.

You cant honestly play back to back to back games and be competitive. Imagine the Raptors schedule Monday - NYK, Tuesday Boston, Wednesday Orlando, Friday Miami.....lol it would be more worth wile for us to just not play 11/12 season

or a more realistic look, our schedual has us playing SAS, LAL, CHI in February, Imagine if this was one of the instances where we played a x3 back to back.....that would be three very easy, yet hard to swallo losses.... time for kobe to put up another 81 point gamer, or is it Roses time to throw up 30+ assists in one game
Why do the games have to end a specific time?
Why is Basketball a game that's played during the winter months?

Starting the season Jan 1, and finishing whenever a regular seasons time-frame finished would be fine would it not?
It's not like the many of the arena's are going to be used for other sports after Hockey is done.

There is no reason to do a shorter 82 game season, just play it out like normal.
Maybe they'll even catch on more ratings during certain time-frames. Who knows.
Psi is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2011, 12:08 PM   #559 (permalink)
sticking to his guns... is stuck to his guns...

Senior Member

 
DanH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 4,164
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psi View Post
Why do the games have to end a specific time?
Why is Basketball a game that's played during the winter months?

Starting the season Jan 1, and finishing whenever a regular seasons time-frame finished would be fine would it not?
It's not like the many of the arena's are going to be used for other sports after Hockey is done.

There is no reason to do a shorter 82 game season, just play it out like normal.
Maybe they'll even catch on more ratings during certain time-frames. Who knows.
There are very real reasons why they can't schedule games after the scheduled end of season - the arenas are blocked off for a specific period of time. The dates after the scheduled end of playoffs would be booked full with concerts, etc, more so than other sports, if not by now then very soon.

There would also be complications with TV deals, etc - the TV channels may be less than happy about having to accommodate the playoffs at a different time of year, as TV schedules are often decided a full year in advance.
DanH is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2011, 12:18 PM   #560 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummomd so people stop whining

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 73,478
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Multiple sources report that the salary cap figure will remain level this season, at $58 million, and projections are that the cap for the 2012-2013 season would be approximately $60 million to $61 million.

“That’s what we’ve been discussing, though the exact dollar amount is not set until the new deal is done,’’ one league source said.

If these numbers hold up, the Knicks would have significant room under the cap next summer when Chris Paul, Deron Williams and Dwight Howard are slated to hit the free-agent market.
Quote:
Economic projections from sources say the salary cap will then grow to about $60-$61 million in 2012, when the Knicks will have the largest cap space in the league and have room to woo either Chris Paul, Deron Williams or Dwight Howard, who are slated to become free agents. The Knicks could be at least $20 million under the projected 2012 cap.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knick...qYYk4xR4CJ3ApO

Last edited by jeffb; 11-01-2011 at 12:23 PM.
jeffb is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24