Lockout official - Page 24
Old 10-20-2011, 11:11 PM   #461 (permalink)
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Did you think they were going to settle in October? lol

Watching the NBAPA press conference right now on NBATV and they said there is no way they'll accept a system like Hockey. lol

Owners saying no further meetings until there is a precondition that the players agree to 50/50

But it amazes me how they're about 2% apart on BRI and this can't be worked out. Pretty fucked up!
what can you say, im an optimistic person lol
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Old 10-21-2011, 08:23 AM   #462 (permalink)
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It smells a little of bargaining in bad faith on the owners' part. It's one thing to demand that all teams have a better chance of making some money, it's another thing to want to ensure big profits in spite of themselves, and to risk damaging the game in the process. And frankly the perception that is coming across isn't that far off from what Bryant Gumbel was saying. There seems to be no respect for the union, and instead a desire to break that union, and it's hard to see where that helps the game.
Yep, the owners never planned to be in good faith on anything. This has always been about the win. The past few months has probably seen some progress, but it was essentially posturing so they could survive a NLRB investigation if it came to that.

And I don't think they need to break the union, as long as the union gives them what they want. If they have to they will break them though. It's not right, it hurts the game, but the system needs to be stabilized.
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Old 10-21-2011, 08:51 AM   #463 (permalink)
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It smells a little of bargaining in bad faith on the owners' part. It's one thing to demand that all teams have a better chance of making some money, it's another thing to want to ensure big profits in spite of themselves, and to risk damaging the game in the process. And frankly the perception that is coming across isn't that far off from what Bryant Gumbel was saying. There seems to be no respect for the union, and instead a desire to break that union, and it's hard to see where that helps the game.
Big profit? Hunter himself stated that under their proposal the owners would break even. Obviously owners want more then breaking even and asking for a 50/50 BRI split seems fair to me and not so insane. From the start the players said they'd take 53% and now they've gone down a whole .5%. They want to keep the Bird rights/most exceptions and don't want any part of a hard cap. Fuck the players!
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Old 10-21-2011, 08:59 AM   #464 (permalink)
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Big profit? Hunter himself stated that under their proposal the owners would break even. Obviously owners want more then breaking even and asking for a 50/50 BRI split seems fair to me and not so insane. From the start the players said they'd take 53% and now they've gone down a whole .5%. They want to keep the Bird rights/most exceptions and don't want any part of a hard cap. Fuck the players!
A bit extreme - but yes, let's try to remember that the 57% was a false status quo - the players coming down from 57% doesn't mean more than the owners coming up from 46%. When they got to the owners offering 47% and the players wanting 53%, I thought we were more in the range of healthy bargaining based on the long term past of the agreements. Now the owners came up to 50%, but like I said before, the owners have been counting on the players' stubbornness to get them to some missed games. Now the leverage can take effect.

Actually, I thought the offered 50-52.5% range would have been a good offer for the owners to take, if they could have put in their 'hard' luxury tax. But with the current system, that percentage would just grow over time once again.
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Old 10-21-2011, 07:20 PM   #465 (permalink)
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Paul Allen just kicked the Laker's ass. I hate losing an NBA season, but enough's enough. The fella has lost over a billion dollars (BILLION, that's 1,000,000,000) trying to compete against the corrupted big teams in this league. Things HAVE TO CHANGE

NBA High-5: Blazers' Paul Allen revealed as one of hard-line owners blocking resolution of lockout | OregonLive.com
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Old 10-21-2011, 10:09 PM   #466 (permalink)
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Old 10-22-2011, 02:33 AM   #467 (permalink)
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So if there is a full season lockout, does this year count towards the player's contract (i.e. will Dwight Howard be a free agent in 2012 even if there is a full year lockout)?
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Old 10-22-2011, 11:43 AM   #468 (permalink)
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So if there is a full season lockout, does this year count towards the player's contract (i.e. will Dwight Howard be a free agent in 2012 even if there is a full year lockout)?
Yes he'll still be a free agent.. but won't be able to sign anywhere unless the lockout is over.
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Old 10-23-2011, 01:58 AM   #469 (permalink)
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Yes he'll still be a free agent.. but won't be able to sign anywhere unless the lockout is over.
So they won't get paid for an entire year? Aren't they guaranteed contracts?
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Old 10-23-2011, 09:29 AM   #470 (permalink)
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So they won't get paid for an entire year? Aren't they guaranteed contracts?
Yeah, but they are guaranteed under the CBA, which no longer exists.
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Old 10-23-2011, 05:57 PM   #471 (permalink)
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Yeah, but they are guaranteed under the CBA, which no longer exists.
Thanks.
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:38 PM   #472 (permalink)
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According to the Daily News' source, this latest cancellation would total at least 102 games and run through Nov. 28.

The source told the Daily News that the NBA will announce the latest cancellation of games on Tuesday.
NBA Lockout 2011 -- League to cancel two more weeks of regular season, according to report - ESPN
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Old 10-25-2011, 08:51 AM   #473 (permalink)
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According to Sheridan, there are a few system issues that are up for debate even when/if the BRI and hard luxury tax get sorted out.

NBA lockout update: Where the sides stand on financial and system issues

MLE: both sides agree to 5M starting salary. Players want annual raises and a length of 4 years. Owners want a 3-year 15M contract (no raises).

RFA: both sides have agreed to shorten the window to sign RFA's after they receive an offer sheet (from 7 to 3/4 days). Players want players off their rookie contracts to be UFA, owners don't.

Trades: Players want to increase the traded player exception to allow receiving 225% the salary you send out (it is currently 125%). The owners are conceding up to 140%, with restrictions on tax paying teams.

Annual raises: Owners want them reduced to 4.5% and 3%. Players want to stick to 10.5 and 8, with slight reductions to 9 and 7% for players on 4 or 5 year contracts.

Escrow system: Owners want an unlimited escrow system. Player don't want any change to the escrow system. Who saw that coming? :cookie:

Bird restrictions: Players want no restrictions. Owners have backed off some of their restriction demands, but still want to restrict the use of MLE and early-bird for tax paying teams.

Max salaries: Both sides agreed to keep the old system of max contracts. This is a change in the stance of the owners, who wanted changes.
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Old 10-25-2011, 09:02 AM   #474 (permalink)
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Escrow system: Owners want an unlimited escrow system. Player don't want any change to the escrow system.
Someone explain this for me please. Thanks.
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Old 10-25-2011, 09:20 AM   #475 (permalink)
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it is all explained in danh's blog post about the cba history (particularly parts 2&3).

Raptors Blog - Toronto Raptors Blog & Message Forum
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Old 10-25-2011, 09:25 AM   #476 (permalink)
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Someone explain this for me please. Thanks.
It's described in better detail in my posts, but for a quick and dirty definition, the escrow is a portion of player salaries held back throughout the year (between 8 and 10%) to make sure that at the end of the year, the various cap exceptions do not drive spending above the 57% of BRI the players are guaranteed. If the players' salaries exceed 57%, part of the withheld escrow is kept to make the salaries match 57% exactly. If the salaries exceed 57% by MORE than the escrow held back, the owners would have no way of recouping the lost money. There are further complications, but you can read my posts if you want the details.
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Old 10-25-2011, 12:00 PM   #477 (permalink)
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Interesting,

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"It's not worth it. Get a deal done," former Dallas Starsforward Bill Guerin said during a phone call last week.

There was not a single NHL player during the Great Lockout of 2004-05 who was a bigger proponent of the union's fight than this man. No one believed in the cause more than Guerin, and to hear him admit this is a bit stunning.

"I learned a big lesson: It's not a partnership," Guerin said. "It's their league, and you are going to play when they want."


When reflecting on the NHL lockout that wiped out the entire 2004-05 season, Guerin sounds like a man who had reality shoved down his throat. There is no bitterness in his voice, just truths, which aren't necessarily positive. The truth is Guerin, or any player, really isn't in charge as long as those who are cutting the cheques are unified. If it doesn't sound that much different than your job, it's because it's not.

Veteran of NHL conflict warns NBA owners have more power than it seems
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Old 10-25-2011, 12:53 PM   #478 (permalink)
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from billy hunter on the bs report, as posted by truehoop:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...aires-run-amok

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It is about the top, who have the leverage and the power beginning to impose upon other folks, the workers of the world. And I know there's a struggle when we talk wealth, you're going to say to me we're talking about billionaires and millionaires. Well, a guy making a few dollars during his playing career, but most of our players when they end playing basketball, they're going to be living for another 40 years or so. And I don't know how long that money's going to last, even if they've made every prudent investment they can possibly make, at what level they're going to be able to live.
this is the kind of bullshit rhetoric that really irks me in this negotiation. how about those players do what all other people do when they get older and find themselves suddenly obsolete in their profession - retrain and find work elsewhere! he tries to make the case that this is somewhat like the power imbalance between owners and workers in any profession, and then goes on to imply that the players have amassed a standard of living such that they should never have to work again. what utter nonsense.

the longer this goes on, the more i am becoming disillusioned with nba players. they seem to be completely disconnected from the real world, hoping for a lifetime of fantasy camp. blech.
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Old 10-25-2011, 01:06 PM   #479 (permalink)
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And I don't know how long that money's going to last, even if they've made every prudent investment they can possibly make, at what level they're going to be able to live.
Really? Average salary $5 million. Average length of career, 4 years. $20 million dollars. The average North American household makes less than $50,000 per year. Over a 40 year work life, that's 2 million dollars. So you're telling me that the NBA players can't spread 10 times a lifetime's worth of money over the rest of their retirement even if they make prudent investments? You save even 5 million of that, and invest in a guaranteed low-return government bond at 1% interest, and guess what? You've got yourself a $50,000 per year annuity income. In perpetuity. For doing nothing. After spending $5 million dollars of your take home salary (assuming a 50% tax rate).

No, the owners aren't any worse off, but the players can hardly cry poor without coming under fire.
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Old 10-25-2011, 01:10 PM   #480 (permalink)
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Really? Average salary $5 million. Average length of career, 4 years. $20 million dollars. The average North American household makes less than $50,000 per year. Over a 40 year work life, that's 2 million dollars. So you're telling me that the NBA players can't spread 10 times a lifetime's worth of money over the rest of their retirement even if they make prudent investments? You save even 5 million of that, and invest in a guaranteed low-return government bond at 1% interest, and guess what? You've got yourself a $50,000 per year annuity income. In perpetuity. For doing nothing. After spending $5 million dollars of your take home salary (assuming a 50% tax rate).

No, the owners aren't any worse off, but the players can hardly cry poor without coming under fire.
You have to take into account, that most of them wont have that money due to houses, cars and other stuff that they want to buy. Their expenses are also at a level that the average family is not at.
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