Lakers about to sign Rasheed Wallace - Page 2
Old 02-26-2012, 05:37 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Usage, smusage, numbers, schmumbers. They never have and never will tell the entire story.

True greatness in basketball is the ability to make teammates better when they are struggling and give them confidence, not steal their shots.

How the hell do you steal a teammate's shot anyways?? That doesn't make any sense.
This is it.

I'm holding Kobe to a very, very high standard because all I hear about this guy is how awesome he is. Awesome players make their teammates BETTER... they don't make excuses and demand better teammates.

Nash has made people better for YEARS now.

Lin has made his Knicks teammates (the same guys who looked HORRID before) better.

Pierce, Lebron and Wade have made their teammates better.

Kobe's answer to everything is to take more shots.... whether it's over double teams or triple teams. If your big men need someone reliable to feed them down low then YOU DO IT. If your team needs someone who can run the offense then YOU DO IT.

Kobe has what? 5 rings? Did he ever have a top flight PG for ANY of those titles?
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Old 02-26-2012, 05:50 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Usage, smusage, numbers, schmumbers. They never have and never will tell the entire story.
I don't think it tells the entire story either. The point was that, combined, Bynum and Gasol are being used more than ever before.

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True greatness in basketball is the ability to make teammates better when they are struggling and give them confidence, not steal their shots.
Your world is so simple sometimes. Fisher is shooting terribly...like 37%. Blake is shooting 39%. Artest is shooting 34%.

These guys couldn't hit the broad side of barn even if Lebron or MJ was setting them up.

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How the hell do you steal a teammate's shot anyways?? That doesn't make any sense.
No, it does make sense. You're just being difficult. It's okay, I still love you.

When I say Kobe is "stealing" shots, I mean that the extra shots he's taking this year (about 3 or 4 a game) are perimeter shots. They are shots in the offense that would be perimeter shots otherwise taken by Fisher, Blake or Artest, when they are open. But on the 3 or 4 occassions per game, Kobe completely lacks the trust to give them the shot and takes it himself, regardless of whether they are open and he has a hand in his face.

And this is also born out in other statistics. A greater percentage of Kobe's shots are perimeter shots (outside 17 feet) this year. It's because he's taking perimeter shots that would normally be taken by other players.

He still trusts the bigs and they still get their touches. He doesn't trust the crew stinking it up on the perimeter.
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Old 02-26-2012, 06:25 PM   #23 (permalink)
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This is it.

I'm holding Kobe to a very, very high standard because all I hear about this guy is how awesome he is. Awesome players make their teammates BETTER... they don't make excuses and demand better teammates.

Nash has made people better for YEARS now.

Lin has made his Knicks teammates (the same guys who looked HORRID before) better.

Pierce, Lebron and Wade have made their teammates better.

Kobe's answer to everything is to take more shots.... whether it's over double teams or triple teams. If your big men need someone reliable to feed them down low then YOU DO IT. If your team needs someone who can run the offense then YOU DO IT.

Kobe has what? 5 rings? Did he ever have a top flight PG for ANY of those titles?
It's pretty well known that you don't need a top flight PG for the triangle offense.
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Old 02-26-2012, 07:52 PM   #24 (permalink)
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All Rasheed will be able to do is take wide open 3s and defend other slow moving big men.
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:05 PM   #25 (permalink)
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It's pretty well known that you don't need a top flight PG for the triangle offense.
So should we put all the blame on Mike Brown then, for altering an offense that was clearly working?
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Old 02-26-2012, 11:33 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I don't think it tells the entire story either. The point was that, combined, Bynum and Gasol are being used more than ever before.



Your world is so simple sometimes. Fisher is shooting terribly...like 37%. Blake is shooting 39%. Artest is shooting 34%.

These guys couldn't hit the broad side of barn even if Lebron or MJ was setting them up.



No, it does make sense. You're just being difficult. It's okay, I still love you.

When I say Kobe is "stealing" shots, I mean that the extra shots he's taking this year (about 3 or 4 a game) are perimeter shots. They are shots in the offense that would be perimeter shots otherwise taken by Fisher, Blake or Artest, when they are open. But on the 3 or 4 occassions per game, Kobe completely lacks the trust to give them the shot and takes it himself, regardless of whether they are open and he has a hand in his face.

And this is also born out in other statistics. A greater percentage of Kobe's shots are perimeter shots (outside 17 feet) this year. It's because he's taking perimeter shots that would normally be taken by other players.

He still trusts the bigs and they still get their touches. He doesn't trust the crew stinking it up on the perimeter.
I'm trying to figure you out Haverchuck...you argue without a stance. You jump in, but you got no stance other than that the other person is wrong, and you're going to prove them wrong. You often lack substance.
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:10 AM   #27 (permalink)
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I'm trying to figure you out Haverchuck...you argue without a stance. You jump in, but you got no stance other than that the other person is wrong, and you're going to prove them wrong. You often lack substance.
Nice shot Bj. I hope you enjoyed it.

Let's recap. I jumped in and highlighted the comment about Kobe taking 24 shots when he's got two of the best bigs in the game. The implication is that he should be giving them the ball more.

The truth is, the bigs are touching the ball more than the past. Kobe's taking 24 shots instead of 20 because he's taking them from perimeter players.

That's my stance. It's not about him Kobe neglecting the bigs. He's taking shots away from perimeter players.
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:25 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Nice shot Bj. I hope you enjoyed it.

Let's recap. I jumped in and highlighted the comment about Kobe taking 24 shots when he's got two of the best bigs in the game. The implication is that he should be giving them the ball more.

The truth is, the bigs are touching the ball more than the past. Kobe's taking 24 shots instead of 20 because he's taking them from perimeter players.

That's my stance. It's not about him Kobe neglecting the bigs. He's taking shots away from perimeter players.
I'll play your games HAVERCHUCK!!!!

So, by Mr. Haverchuck's irrefutable logic.




Kobe Bryant only steals/absorbs/takes shots from the perimeter players

THEREFORE

IF Kobe Bryant was not on the Los Angeles Lakers

THEN

Pau Gasol AND Andrew Bynum would be taking exactly the same number of shots with Kobe as they do without Kobe

= FLAWED LOGIC



It's a weak stance based solely on numbers (now proven to be flawed)...you need to compliment the numbers with something qualitative, perhaps not your forte?

I know both basketball and numbers very well, which is why I try to stay away from numbers when talking basketball.

Last edited by bjjs; 02-27-2012 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:40 AM   #29 (permalink)
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This is it.

I'm holding Kobe to a very, very high standard because all I hear about this guy is how awesome he is. Awesome players make their teammates BETTER... they don't make excuses and demand better teammates.

Nash has made people better for YEARS now.

Lin has made his Knicks teammates (the same guys who looked HORRID before) better.

Pierce, Lebron and Wade have made their teammates better.

Kobe's answer to everything is to take more shots.... whether it's over double teams or triple teams. If your big men need someone reliable to feed them down low then YOU DO IT. If your team needs someone who can run the offense then YOU DO IT.

Kobe has what? 5 rings? Did he ever have a top flight PG for ANY of those titles?
He looked ugly at the end of the all-star game. A cold, angry dude.

Just a hunch, his career is going to end with some ugliness along with the glory of achieving some statistical milestones.

And I don't think Dwight or any other star is going to save him with a last Hoorah. Nobody in the league likes him.
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:57 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bjjs View Post

Kobe Bryant only steals/absorbs/takes shots from the perimeter players

THEREFORE

IF Kobe Bryant was not on the Los Angeles Lakers

THEN

Pau Gasol AND Andrew Bynum would be taking exactly the same number of shots as they are right now.

= FLAWED LOGIC
No, that's not what I'm saying. Taking Kobe completely out adds a different dimension. Because if Kobe Bryant was not on the Lakers, the defence would plan differently. The Lakers would then adjust to that different planning. It might even be harder to get the ball inside because then the Lakers would have absolutely no threat on the perimeter to respect, and the defense could totally collapse. My assesment was taking into account what the defense has given the Lakers over the past few seasons. The bigs are actually a bigger part this year.

Not all of Kobe's shots are bad. He should be taking a lot of shots. If he had guys making perimeter shots, sure it would be better if he passed off to them. The increase in his shots this season is coming from the perimeter though. Guys aren't making shots. He's added more perimeter shots, and it coincides with the drop in the number of perimeter shots other guys are taking.

You can't go inside all game long. It's not given to you. That's where your qualitative assesment comes in. And I actually already mentioned that. If you just go inside non-stop, the defence will collapse. You have to have something coming from the outside.

Last edited by Bill Haverchuck; 02-27-2012 at 01:01 AM.
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Old 02-27-2012, 08:34 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Did adding a new coach add a different dimension? Losing Phil Jackson?? How about losing Lamar Odom? How do you know the big guys aren't taking 4 shots from the perimeter scrubs, and Kobe isn't taking 4 shots in turn from the big guys?

Just like you said, different dimension. So we can agree the usage rates quoted add little to an argument still lacking any substantial qualitative analysis.

Haverchuck, if you think Kobe is taking great shots, and he needs to put the load on his shoulders, that's a valid opinion.

But realize that your numbers don't prove your point one way or another, they're meaningless.

Realize that an maybe next time jump in with a substantive opinion on Kobe, rather than..."you're wrong Torap, usage rates tell me blahblahblah" :nerd:

Last edited by bjjs; 02-27-2012 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 02-27-2012, 09:38 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Kobe takes a hella lot of bad shots. Some nights those bad shots turn into gold, but he's not the same player anymore, and the lack of the threat to drive so much means he has to be dead on with his shooting to make it work. And Pau might be seeing the ball as often, but he's seeing it quite a lot on the perimeter himself, so it's not like there's any danger of pounding the ball inside too much.

We've seen Kobe be able to make his current teammates, as well as teammates in other less glorious seasons, better, and it has to be clear that he just doesn't do it on the whole, particularly when he needs to prove something as an individual and he doesn't see his team going anywhere in any case.
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