Josh Smith Available? - Page 2
Old 06-22-2011, 12:48 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Word. Everyone on this site seems to suggest playground bball team setups where the first people chosen for a team are people who can drive. Get rid of Bargnani and all of a sudden the offense is about driving to the net. All the defense needs to do is clog the paint. Right at this moment, barely anyone can stretch the defense, except Bargnani. How much worse will the Raptors offense change if Bargnani were gone? I know the argument will be made that we can get new players who can, but it seems that any player suggested is another slasher. I'm all for slashers, only if the opposing defense is spread.

I said it before, Bosh was great in his last year here because Bargnani stretched the defense and he was able to get to the paint easily. How many times have you seen opposing centres come out to guard Bargnani in the perimeter? In Miami's case, Bosh is kind of like Bargnani in offense because he does hang out at near the perimeter at times. Doesn't hurt that they have some solid 3pt shooters as well. This opened up lanes for Wade and Lebron to get to the rim with ease.

At the moment, out of the 'core' we have:
Davis: who has no offensive game outside of 5 feet from the basket
DD: shot improving, but still relies mostly on driving. not a 3pt threat at all
Amir: similar to Davis, but better shot
Bayless: decent 3pt shot, but not reliable
JJ: not a perimeter threat

Bargnani: one of the most versatile scorers in the league, he just wasn't used properly. Yes, his defense is atrocious but hopefully a proper centre and Casey will somehow change it or at least get him more motivated.

So basically it's a team that will rely on slashing if Bargnani is gone. Add Josh Smith to the mix, it's even more so. Not say it's bad, but I'm saying that slashing is not as effective without perimeter threats. Slashing is definitely effective when you can draw opposing bigs away from the basket and Bargnani is one of the few people who can effectively do that in this league.

As much as I think davis has been great for the raptors, if Raptors have a chance to get a similar player with size that can play centre and let Bargnani go back to PF, I say go for it.

I know people like to see flashy dunks all day, but enough with the playground bball and its focus on individual play. it's time for NBA level strategies... a team game
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Old 06-22-2011, 12:51 PM   #22 (permalink)
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bargnani supporters overvalue him
bargnani haters undervalue him (questionable)

its fair to say the haters are going off results and the supporters are going off the idea of bargnani
I call Bullshit on that. Results say the Raps win with Bargs in the line-up than without; if nothing else then for the simple reasons pointed out by ST above. Bargs does let more points in but there is more to the equation of wins than that. And if you go by the logic from the other thread, if we had better defenders on the perimeter, then theoretically Bargs should get better defensively as there would be less slashers to contend with.

It's odd though, during Bargs' first couple years he'd have trouble staying out of foul trouble and now he's swung the other way where he avoids contact to stay on the floor. My hopes is that Casey and his new staff can teach Bargs how to balance this.

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Old 06-22-2011, 12:55 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by powerfulpanda View Post
bargnani supporters overvalue him
bargnani haters undervalue him (questionable)

its fair to say the haters are going off results and the supporters are going off the idea of bargnani
It's laughable that you think anyone that opposes your view is basing it on an irrational basis, yet you just stated haters undervalue him while undermining your own premise by suggesting that it's questionable. Well done.

As for Jeff and Don, I never said we wouldn't change anything else, I simply suggested that removing Bargnani from this team still leaves a terrible team full of brutal defenders. Of course we'd make other changes, nothing is done in a vacuum.
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Old 06-22-2011, 01:05 PM   #24 (permalink)
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It's laughable that you think anyone that opposes your view is basing it on an irrational basis, yet you just stated haters undervalue him while undermining your own premise by suggesting that it's questionable. Well done.

As for Jeff and Don, I never said we wouldn't change anything else, I simply suggested that removing Bargnani from this team still leaves a terrible team full of brutal defenders. Of course we'd make other changes, nothing is done in a vacuum.
its laughable that the self proclaimed "man of reason" assumes that i fall under the hater category when my post doesn't indicate that.

i was just stating that people who hate on Bargnani have a good reason too because its evident by the results. and people who are supporting bargnani, all there points are always pertaining to what kind of player he has the potential to be.
ie: when in the right situation he can be effective, when playing PF alongside a legit center he'll be good, blah blah etc etc

those are all based on speculation by those that have envisioned the potential of Bargnani under the right circumstances.
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Old 06-22-2011, 01:29 PM   #25 (permalink)
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its laughable that the self proclaimed "man of reason" assumes that i fall under the hater category when my post doesn't indicate that.

i was just stating that people who hate on Bargnani have a good reason too because its evident by the results. and people who are supporting bargnani, all there points are always pertaining to what kind of player he has the potential to be.
ie: when in the right situation he can be effective, when playing PF alongside a legit center he'll be good, blah blah etc etc

those are all based on speculation by those that have envisioned the potential of Bargnani under the right circumstances.
i like Bargnani because he scored 20ppg this year and has a versatile offensive game. i don't like him because his defensive potential does not seem to be there. where does that put me on your 'spectrum'?
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Old 06-22-2011, 01:33 PM   #26 (permalink)
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i like Bargnani because he scored 20ppg this year and has a versatile offensive game. i don't like him because his defensive potential does not seem to be there. where does that put me on your 'spectrum'?
Depends if you place more importance on defense or offense. And if I remember correctly you want him gone??
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Old 06-22-2011, 01:38 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Depends if you place more importance on defense or offense. And if I remember correctly you want him gone??
i'd be ok with seeing him gone if we got something back that made it worthwhile. i feel that way about pretty much all of our players. he's not as easy to replace as it may seem, though.

to the other point, it doesn't depend on whether i favour offense or defense (but for the record they are equally important, i think by definition). both of those statements refute the position powerfulpanda was putting forward. i like him becasue of his results and don't like him because of his potential.
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Old 06-22-2011, 01:41 PM   #28 (permalink)
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i like Bargnani because he scored 20ppg this year and has a versatile offensive game. i don't like him because his defensive potential does not seem to be there. where does that put me on your 'spectrum'?
even the point of Bargnani having a versatile offensive game is an idea. we all have hopes that the ideal Bargnani can shoot from range and then when crowded can take his slower defender off the dribble, drive into the paint to go up strong or draw fouls.
he's far too inconsistant to credit him with a versatile offensive game
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Old 06-22-2011, 01:46 PM   #29 (permalink)
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you can't possibly mean that.
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Old 06-22-2011, 01:49 PM   #30 (permalink)
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you can't possibly mean that.
so you weren't at all frustrated at times this year with him on the offensive end?
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Old 06-22-2011, 01:57 PM   #31 (permalink)
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its laughable that the self proclaimed "man of reason" assumes that i fall under the hater category when my post doesn't indicate that.

i was just stating that people who hate on Bargnani have a good reason too because its evident by the results. and people who are supporting bargnani, all there points are always pertaining to what kind of player he has the potential to be.
ie: when in the right situation he can be effective, when playing PF alongside a legit center he'll be good, blah blah etc etc

those are all based on speculation by those that have envisioned the potential of Bargnani under the right circumstances.
Man, I didn't proclaim myself 'the man of reason' rather 'a man of reason'. Regardless, my objection isn't against you, just your faulty logic. Further, there are legitimate reasons to support Bargnani, you're just assuming they are all based on potential when in fact they are not. Sometimes there are reasons that we cannot see or have overlooked, but you're posting as if you've taken a holistic approach and not left out anything. If you haven't seen an effective Bargnani, then you haven't watched enough. Maybe it hasn't been as often as most would like, but it's foolish to say it's never happened.
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Old 06-22-2011, 02:03 PM   #32 (permalink)
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so you weren't at all frustrated at times this year with him on the offensive end?
sure, at times. that doesn't mean his offensive game isn't versatile, though.
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