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-   -   Iverson: a 'loser'. (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f6/iverson-loser-4126.html)

INSIDER 11-10-2008 01:33 AM

Iverson: a 'loser'.
 
before i get all the AI fanboys up in arms, i dont mean the word 'loser' in the harsh/derogatory sense... but i mean it in the sense that he isnt a winner.
he will never be a winner... in fact, if it isnt about him (being the focal point of a team), he actually makes a team worse.

ok, i know its only 2 games since the trade but;
detroit before the trade= 4-0
with iverson= 0-2

denver before the trade =1-3
without iverson= 2-0

i honestly believe that AI going to detroit is the best thing that happened to teams fighting for top spots in the east - especially Toronto.
AI kills detroit's chemistry and makes them worse.
Toronto #2 in the east, just watch....
thanks Dumars.

Raptorman 11-10-2008 02:09 AM

Yep. Det looks like most other teams now. 4 players wondering if the PG will give up the ball.

jumplvlan23 11-10-2008 02:29 AM

My god.
Some of you guys have to relax.

It's been two measly games! How can you POSSIBLY tell if this deal was a bad one or not?
By no means am I an AI fanboy, but I hate how people have the tendency to make up assumptions based on a very small sample.

They lost to NJ, but seeing how Detriot plays in a very structured offensive and defensive system, it was a given that they would probably lose in IVERSON'S FIRST GAME with the team (no practice time for him either). Their second loss was against the defending champions the Boston Celtics, and 28 other teams could have just as easily lost to them too (including the Nuggets with Billups).

Detriot needed someone who could create his own shot and was a prolific scorer. Although Billups fits that bill to a certain extent, Iverson is the type of player they were looking for.

INSIDER 11-10-2008 03:04 AM

perfect, i knew someone would jump in and say "its only been 2 games! omigosh you have to relax!
i was waiting for that.
shall i bring up his run in Denver?
that ended up being a fail.
and look at how philly turned their luck around when AI left... they actually got better.

AI is not a winner.
if its not all about him, teams actually play worse with him.

hey jump, wanna bet that Denver actually ends up with a better record than last year?
or how about we bet that detroit's record will be worse than last season?

Quote:

Detriot needed someone who could create his own shot and was a prolific scorer. Although Billups fits that bill to a certain extent, Iverson is the type of player they were looking for
are you kidding?
the last thing detroit wants is a guy that will hang on to the ball for 15 seconds and get his shot off.
the Pistons are all about movement and open looks.
AI kills their gameplan.

they have a cake games vs sacramento on tuesday, then Gstate after that.
if they dont wipe the floor with these 2 - like the pistons of old would do, without breaking a sweat - they are in trrrrouble.

Ugo Ferst 11-10-2008 03:41 AM

Well, obv you know more then Dumars about AI's skill and character, it's not like he is getting old and winning is the only thing left for him to do to solidfy his HOF career, im sure he will be a greedy ball hog, not play D and be a locker room cancer, because all those rook's on detriot wont have the balls to step up and tell him. Im sure he wont help during those long lulls in scoring detriot has (as witnessed in last years playoffs, esp 4th quarters) that basically kill them. Nope, poor ol Joe is clueless, ill forward this to him.

INSIDER 11-10-2008 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugo Ferst (Post 70655)
Well, obv you know more then Dumars about AI's skill and character, it's not like he is getting old and winning is the only thing left for him to do to solidfy his HOF career, im sure he will be a greedy ball hog, not play D and be a locker room cancer, because all those rook's on detriot wont have the balls to step up and tell him. Im sure he wont help during those long lulls in scoring detriot has (as witnessed in last years playoffs, esp 4th quarters) that basically kill them. Nope, poor ol Joe is clueless, ill forward this to him.

would you please, that would be great.
and thanks for bringing up all that stuff about being greedy, not playing D, and being a cancer... is that what you think about him? because i didnt mention any of that.


as always no one really reads the initial post.
they just see the title and think i'm saying AI sucks and that he's a hog.
:sigh:
yet none of that was mentioned once.
but their first reaction is to jump in a defend.
the main point of my post is that AI is not a winner when he's 'not the focal point of a team' and that he actually makes good teams worse.
if you think he isnt, please prove me wrong... and how about adding some examples.
i'll wait here patiently.

The MVP of West Hollywood 11-10-2008 04:41 AM

Way too early to call this, the AI-Melo experiment failing had a lot more to it than AI just leading to losses. It's just not a good combo to put two ball and shot dominating scoring wings on the same team like that with nobody in the frontcourt, a bunch of thugs as supporting players, and George Karl as your coach. PS Denver played the Mavs, who can't win against ANYBODY good and are about to be 2-5, and the Griz who can't win on the road.

fancylad 11-10-2008 09:11 AM

I agree with you Insider.

And i will say that AI sucks and he's a hog. Well maybe not sucks, but he still thinks he's the MVP - and his problem is that he thinks he "NEEDS" to be the man for his teams to win. Like so many other NBA stars, he doesn't see the forest through the trees. Team play takes a backseat with guys like Iverson.

Acie 11-10-2008 09:16 AM

I guess I'm a loser because I like Iverson.

He's the only marquee player/bigtime scorer I've ever seen look to pass first in all-star competition, not to mention he was the only guy who wasn't a ballhog for the US in 2004.

jumplvlan23 11-10-2008 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INSIDER (Post 70649)
perfect, i knew someone would jump in and say "its only been 2 games! omigosh you have to relax!
i was waiting for that.
shall i bring up his run in Denver?
that ended up being a fail.
and look at how philly turned their luck around when AI left... they actually got better.

Go ahead, bring up his run in Denver. Turns out his run in Denver was better than half the league's run during that span. They were one game shy of 50 wins in the first season he was brought there, and 45+ wins thereafter, in a TOUGH WESTERN CONFERENCE.

I guess Bosh is an even BIGGER LOSER because he hasn't done that yet.

Or maybe Lebron is just as much of a loser as Iverson is. I mean, Iverson carried his piss-poor team into the Finals too, and even WON a game in the Finals, beating an insanely dominant Lakers team. It's more than Lebron can say, and definitely more than almost everyone in the NBA can say.



Quote:

Originally Posted by INSIDER (Post 70649)
AI is not a winner.
if its not all about him, teams actually play worse with him.

hey jump, wanna bet that Denver actually ends up with a better record than last year?
or how about we bet that detroit's record will be worse than last season?

I don't want to bet anything, because frankly, I have zero confidence in Michael Curry. But I will sure as hell take the bet that Denver will have a better record.

Quote:

Originally Posted by INSIDER (Post 70649)
are you kidding?
the last thing detroit wants is a guy that will hang on to the ball for 15 seconds and get his shot off.
the Pistons are all about movement and open looks.
AI kills their gameplan.

I hate it when people pretend they watch other teams on a regular basis other than their own. If you think Iverson does that, then you are just delusional.

But hey, maybe the former GM of the year is just mentally challenged for having traded Billups for Iverson.



Quote:

Originally Posted by INSIDER (Post 70649)
they have a cake games vs sacramento on tuesday, then Gstate after that.
if they dont wipe the floor with these 2 - like the pistons of old would do, without breaking a sweat - they are in trrrrouble.

Again, the pistons of old were never really known for blowing out their opponents. You only remember games against the Raptors, where they wiped the floor with us. That doesn't mean they did it to the rest of the league. But you would know cuz you seem to have watched the pistons and nuggets very closely throughout the past few years.

They were known as a team who took teams way too easily, and only turned it up a notch when they had to win in the end, and they did.

MangoKidHoops 11-10-2008 11:13 AM

I think it's a bit too early to put a label on Iverson - and while he's a great player, has tremendous heart and can still score with the best of them, I'm not sure he's a great fit for the Pistons' style of play. He does however fit into the Pistons style of family of being "self labelled underdogs" - which in the end could go a long way. However, Joe D has made a living of gambling on guys and hoping they mesh. Some moves have worked (Ben & Rasheed Wallace, Hamilton, Billups) and some haven't (Darko), so who am I to criticize his moves?

INSIDER 11-10-2008 12:11 PM

so of course jump, you neglect actually reading my post and commenting on the point of the it.
let me make it easier;
point - AI actually makes teams worse off if he isnt the number one option (or focal point in a team's offense).
AI cannot be a 'pass-first' unselfish player, it actually hurts his game when he plays like that.

instead, you take offense and your comeback is that i dont watch any other games other than raptors ones.
i'd actually love to take you up on that bet and i'd be willing to bet that i watch a hell of alot more games than you do, but thats not the point here.
AI's game is.

and yes, the pistons of old did blow out opponents,
look up their stats over the last 5 years.
50+ wins every year. with a +/- of 8+ more ppg then their opponent.
they were dominant.

but argueing that is ridiculous.
i just pointed out that AI is not a winner.
if you can prove me wrong then i'd be happy to hear it.
bring up lebron and bosh, i dont know why you would, i never said they were winners either.
this is about AI. do you believe he's a winner?

INSIDER 11-10-2008 12:24 PM

dont get me wrong, i'm an AI fan.
he's a future HOF'er... i just dont think hes a winner.
i dont understand why some of you take offense to that word 'loser'.
i dont mean it in the derogatory sense... i just mean that he wont ever win when it counts, especially if he isnt the focal point in a team's offense.. if he has to play 'unselfishly' he makes teams worse.

Ball Don't Lie 11-10-2008 01:48 PM

You're usually on point insider, but you're jumping the gun on this one as of now. AI I dont think has ever played in a structured offence before, so playing in his first game vs anyone obviously theres gonna be a lot of confusion and DET's gonna have a hard time winning vs anyone with a star player coming into that kind of system in his first game, and the 2nd game they would have lost anyway because Boston is just better.

Its gonna take some time for AI to get used to making the easy pass that may not lead to the assist, something he really hasnt done ever, and its going to take Hamilton and Wallace a lot of time learning how to play off him and still get their shats.

I'd give it 15 games before judging, by mid DEC we'll have a much better idea if this improved them at all.

Personally I like Billups a lot more as do a lot of people here as a player and for that DET team, but everyone knew that DET needed a shakeup because it was gonna be 2nd rd or ECF and out again, and this way they have a lot of cap flexibility after this year with Iverson instead of Billups as well. It really is low risk high reward when you look at it more in depth, something I didnt do when I first saw the rumor. I dont think itll ultimately work withIverson at the helm but itll set DET up beautifully for next year on.

jeffb 11-10-2008 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INSIDER (Post 70637)
before i get all the AI fanboys up in arms, i dont mean the word 'loser' in the harsh/derogatory sense... but i mean it in the sense that he isnt a winner.
he will never be a winner... in fact, if it isnt about him (being the focal point of a team), he actually makes a team worse.

ok, i know its only 2 games since the trade but;
detroit before the trade= 4-0
with iverson= 0-2

denver before the trade =1-3
without iverson= 2-0

i honestly believe that AI going to detroit is the best thing that happened to teams fighting for top spots in the east - especially Toronto.
AI kills detroit's chemistry and makes them worse.
Toronto #2 in the east, just watch....
thanks Dumars.

Toronto #2?? We'll be lucky to stay in the top5 the way we're playing.Unless BC can somehow upgrade the 3 spot the best we can hope for is 6th.Detroit is still a scary team.

INSIDER 11-10-2008 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thriller92 (Post 70801)
You're usually on point insider, but you're jumping the gun on this one as of now. AI I dont think has ever played in a structured offence before, so playing in his first game vs anyone obviously theres gonna be a lot of confusion and DET's gonna have a hard time winning vs anyone with a star player coming into that kind of system in his first game, and the 2nd game they would have lost anyway because Boston is just better.

Its gonna take some time for AI to get used to making the easy pass that may not lead to the assist, something he really hasnt done ever, and its going to take Hamilton and Wallace a lot of time learning how to play off him and still get their shats.

I'd give it 15 games before judging, by mid DEC we'll have a much better idea if this improved them at all.

Personally I like Billups a lot more as do a lot of people here as a player and for that DET team, but everyone knew that DET needed a shakeup because it was gonna be 2nd rd or ECF and out again, and this way they have a lot of cap flexibility after this year with Iverson instead of Billups as well. It really is low risk high reward when you look at it more in depth, something I didnt do when I first saw the rumor. I dont think itll ultimately work withIverson at the helm but itll set DET up beautifully for next year on.

i hear ya thrills.
i'm rooting for AI because he's a warrior, but i still cant shake the idea that he cant win unless he's the main and lone guy.
and your point is bang on... alot of people saw this trade as AI going to detroit to win it all, but missed the main reasoning behind it all - cap flexibility.
dumars isnt an idiot, he knows that AI's 20+ million which comes off the books next year is the main treasure of the trade.
dumars isnt banking on AI making much of a difference to the pistons other than 'shaking it up', his main goal is to have the funds to net a major FA (wade, bosh, lebron) in 2010.
so anyone thinking that dumars did this move on the sole intention of winning now is a fool IMO.

Gurk 11-10-2008 07:19 PM

I heard that Rip was pissed off about this trade and hasn't talked to the media about it. OUCH!

Windex 11-11-2008 10:16 AM

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2008...istons_350.jpg

Ugo Ferst 11-12-2008 12:51 PM

I heard that Iverson played amazing last night and said it was because of practice hehe

jumplvlan23 11-15-2008 03:11 AM

ZOMG!!!!

DON'T LOOK NOW, BUT THE PISTONS HAVE WON THREE STRAIGHT!! AND THEY JUST BEAT THE LAKERS!!!

Based on this sample of three games, I think Iverson is one of the league's fiercest warriors and GREATEST WINNERS!

Also, based on this sample, I believe the Lakers are out-of-sync offensively, and can't compete for an NBA championship this year.


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