ESPN Screw Up - Page 3
Old 02-21-2012, 11:21 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Christopha View Post
Is niggardly commonly used in sports discussion? Chink in the armour is.
so 'common usage' is more important than the meaning of the word? or the context in which it is used?
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:25 AM   #42 (permalink)
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I didn't say that. I just implied that the pun you were referring too could more easily be noted as racistly intended because it isn't commonly used. Whereas the phrase "chink in the armour" is commonly used, in this situation referred to Lin's bad night with 9 turnovers, and could have been an honest mistake where the editor overlooked the racial pun implications.

Just my opinion anyways.
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:29 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Guy is paid to make headlines - he made a headline that offended a great many of the website's readers. Whether that happened intentionally or through his ineptitude, the company was right to fire him. Sure, we'd all like to think that mistakes like that can be forgiven, but in essence he did not do his job, or did it well below par, and that means they get someone else to do it.

As for whether it was intentional, although in the big picture of the firing it is irrelevant, I have to think it was intentional. As an editor of a website, you should be well versed in common phrases and able to judge the audience's reaction to anything you write - and I can't imagine looking at that headline (in the context of the overblown American-Asian angle this story has been steeped in for weeks) and not seeing the problem. So, either it was intentional, or he was more inept than I can reasonably believe.
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:29 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
if a black player for the knicks had a stand-out defensive performance against boston, and espn ran an article entitled "niggardly knicks stop celtics," would that raise eyebrows in your opinion?
Edit - changing the degree in use of language

Dude, that's a bit unfair. It's not really the same thing, and I hope you know that. Somebody already mentioned this in one of the Lin threads.

The obvious difference is that there is frequent and non-racial use of "chink in the armour" on sports networks/columns. There is not a frequent use of the word "niggardly" anywhere in sports.

This is actually a unique situation, which creates the possibility for a mistake. One of the dudes who made this mistake - I believe it was the TV anchor - is married to an Asian woman.

Anyway, if someone wants to make an argument for why the firing/sensitivity was okay, I'm more inclined to listen to the one Superjudge put forward. I can accept that ESPN is HUGE business with a much larger international audience than other outlets, thus the standard is raised and you're shit out of luck if you fuck up. My emotional side does not like it, but I can accept that you have to make tough decisions in business.
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:30 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christopha View Post
I didn't say that. I just implied that the pun you were referring too could more easily be noted as racistly intended because it isn't commonly used. Whereas the phrase "chink in the armour" is commonly used, in this situation referred to Lin's bad night with 9 turnovers, and could have been an honest mistake where the editor overlooked the racial pun implications.

Just my opinion anyways.
Chink in the armour is a phrase often used in hockey - specifically to describe goalies - can you recall the last time it was used in a basketball article or headline?
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:33 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DanH View Post
Guy is paid to make headlines - he made a headline that offended a great many of the website's readers. Whether that happened intentionally or through his ineptitude, the company was right to fire him. Sure, we'd all like to think that mistakes like that can be forgiven, but in essence he did not do his job, or did it well below par, and that means they get someone else to do it.

As for whether it was intentional, although in the big picture of the firing it is irrelevant, I have to think it was intentional. As an editor of a website, you should be well versed in common phrases and able to judge the audience's reaction to anything you write - and I can't imagine looking at that headline (in the context of the overblown American-Asian angle this story has been steeped in for weeks) and not seeing the problem. So, either it was intentional, or he was more inept than I can reasonably believe.
A dude who is married to an Asian woman made the same mistake. I suppose it's possible he is inept too.
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:34 AM   #47 (permalink)
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speaking as someone who's a "chink" i was offended by the headline. if it was intentional he obviously deserved to be fired. if it was an honest mistake then he still deserves to be fired for being that stupid
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:35 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck View Post
Edit - changing the degree in use of language

Dude, that's a bit unfair. It's not really the same thing, and I hope you know that. Somebody already mentioned this in one of the Lin threads.

The obvious difference is that there is frequent and non-racial use of "chink in the armour" on sports networks/columns. There is not a frequent use of the word "niggardly" anywhere in sports.

This is actually a unique situation, which creates the possibility for a mistake. One of the dudes who made this mistake - I believe it was the TV anchor - is married to an Asian woman.

Anyway, if someone wants to make an argument for why the firing/sensitivity was okay, I'm more inclined to listen to the one Superjudge put forward. I can accept that ESPN is HUGE business with a much larger international audience than other outlets, thus the standard is raised and you're shit out of luck if you fuck up. My emotional side does not like it, but I can accept that you have to make tough decisions in business.
i don't buy that at all. it's exactly the same thing. neither word is racial in etymology, both were used (actually in the lin case and hypothetically in mine) correctly, and neither is directly offensive. if we are going by usage rate, you would have to tell me where the line is at which a word is used often enough that it is ok, regardless of appropriateness (and where it is not).

this is precisely what sj and cling are talking about (as i understand them). espn is too big and too wide to fuck this up. they would have been fired for niggardly in the same way.
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:42 AM   #49 (permalink)
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i don't buy that at all. it's exactly the same thing.
I disagree. Both may be innapropriate to a large audience, but "niggardly" is never used in sports. The other is used in sports. They are not "exactly the same".

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if we are going by usage rate, you would have to tell me where the line is at which a word is used often enough that it is ok, regardless of appropriateness (and where it is not).
That's inherently subjective. But you've chosen an example of a word that is never, or almost never used, and compared it with one that is frequently used. That's a bad example. You're much better off just saying the audience is large, the dude fucked up for not being in tune with how many people will interpret it.
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:45 AM   #50 (permalink)
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I disagree. Both may be innapropriate to a large audience, but "niggardly" is never used in sports. The other is used in sports. They are not "exactly the same".



That's inherently subjective. But you've chosen an example of a word that is never, or almost never used, and compared it with one that is frequently used. That's a bad example. You're much better off just saying the audience is large, the dude fucked up for not being in tune with how many people will interpret it.

i didn't know sports had it's own category of whatis acceptable to the public.


the only reason niggardly isn't used is that north america already went through this issue with that word and it has become basically obsolete, precisely because of sensitive racial reactions. now the same thing may happen with 'chink in the armour'.

as to the question of usage rate, could you answer danh's question? when was teh last time you saw this phrase used in a basketball context (or a non-hockey sports context)?
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:47 AM   #51 (permalink)
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as to the question of usage rate, could you answer danh's question? when was teh last time you saw this phrase used in a basketball context (or a non-hockey sports context)?
I don't know about Basketball. I've heard it used in Football.
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:50 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Racial sensitivity is getting out of hand.

so now the word chink in all its usages is insensitive.

whats next.

When Joe Rogan says that anderson silva is in the black and chael sonnen is in the white, is that racist?

Might as well be by this logic.
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:54 AM   #53 (permalink)
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You're much better off just saying the audience is large, the dude fucked up for not being in tune with how many people will interpret it.
That's about the gist of it, and people in Media/ marketing get canned all the time for such slip ups, they know the score, nobody is surprised.

two of my friends are in the industry at that level, sometimes when we are sitting having a beer or just shooting the shit they talk about stuff that other guys said on air... they will be like "holy shit did you hear Kipper yesterday???" and then there is a big laugh, or sometimes disbelief. In the Media world they pay attention, and they tend to be more aware of this stuff then you'd think. The guys at ESPN are in the Big Leagues of Media writing and broadcasting, they HAVE to be pro's, and one mistake is all you need to have the pink slip slid under the door.

These guys won't be blackballed, they will get new jobs, and trust me, they won't make the same mistake twice.

People need to step back from the ledge on this one, normal thinking does not apply, different rules for different situations. say "chink in the armour" in Snap magazine and you might get a stern talking to...say it to 100 millions viewers world wide, and you get fired.

That my friends is called "the real world" and those of us old enough here to have real world jobs and responsibilities have an easier time understanding, for the younger guys, use it as a bit of an eye opener, you ARE held accountable for your actions in life... sometimes, harshly.
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:57 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Superjudge View Post
That's about the gist of it, and people in Media/ marketing get canned all the time for such slip ups, they know the score, nobody is surprised.

two of my friends are in the industry at that level, sometimes when we are sitting having a beer or just shooting the shit they talk about stuff that other guys said on air... they will be like "holy shit did you hear Kipper yesterday???" and then there is a big laugh, or sometimes disbelief. In the Media world they pay attention, and they tend to be more aware of this stuff then you'd think. The guys at ESPN are in the Big Leagues of Media writing and broadcasting, they HAVE to be pro's, and one mistake is all you need to have the pink slip slid under the door.

These guys won't be blackballed, they will get new jobs, and trust me, they won't make the same mistake twice.

People need to step back from the ledge on this one, normal thinking does not apply, different rules for different situations. say "chink in the armour" in Snap magazine and you might get a stern talking to...say it to 100 millions viewers world wide, and you get fired.

That my friends is called "the real world" and those of us old enough here to have real world jobs and responsibilities have an easier time understanding, for the younger guys, use it as a bit of an eye opener, you ARE held accountable for your actions in life... sometimes, harshly.
problem is the over-sensitivty in the first place.
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Old 02-21-2012, 11:57 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Racial sensitivity is getting out of hand.

so now the word chink in all its usages is insensitive.

whats next.

When Joe Rogan says that anderson silva is in the black and chael sonnen is in the white, is that racist?

Might as well be by this logic.
getting offended by the headline and then have a white guy tell me i'm over sensitive is like being offended twice.
why the hell would you be sensitive to the word chink? have you been called a fucking chink before? and its not even all its usages. its because in this case the story is about someone who's asian. i could care less if chink in the armor was a headline about luongo
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:05 PM   #56 (permalink)
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The phrase "chink in the armour" was used describing an attribute of the USA basketball team in the 2008 Olympics by ESPN. Its been used in basketball.

The editor has stated he's a huge Knicks fan, has crazy respect for Lin, and didn't intend to implicate racism.
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:06 PM   #57 (permalink)
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im not sensitive towards anything.

no word is EVER going to make me devalue myself in such a way that it would upset me.

so lets just remove that phrase from the english language then, aalong with all the others that may come close to being used as a racial slur.

better yet lets all just revert back to a form of communication with clicks and grunts.


was it in good taste for a media outlet, nope.
should the person get canned, sure.

Should society stop using the term, not a fucking chance.
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:19 PM   #58 (permalink)
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ESPN wrong to apologize for ?chink in the armor? - Opinion - The Oracle

Extremely good article outlining my point of view on the subject.
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:43 PM   #59 (permalink)
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ESPN wrong to apologize for ?chink in the armor? - Opinion - The Oracle

Extremely good article outlining my point of view on the subject.
poorly written article that is contradictory. it says its absolutely the right move from a public relations perspective but ESPN was wrong to apologize? huh?
and again, it would actually mean something if it was an asian american who said this isn't offense and we're just all over reacting.
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Old 02-21-2012, 12:49 PM   #60 (permalink)
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problem is the over-sensitivty in the first place.
The reality is that a lot of people are easily offended. Ignoring that reality will just get you fired like this guy - whether he did it intentionally or unintentionally, and whether people should be offended or not is irrelevant - anyone who has stepped outside in the past 3 decades knows people are oversensitive, and would take that into consideration when it comes to job-risking decisions.

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Originally Posted by Christopha View Post
The phrase "chink in the armour" was used describing an attribute of the USA basketball team in the 2008 Olympics by ESPN. Its been used in basketball.

The editor has stated he's a huge Knicks fan, has crazy respect for Lin, and didn't intend to implicate racism.
You know what I would say if I were the type of person to print a racist headline intentionally? "I'm a huge Knicks fan, I have crazy respect for Jeremy Lin, and I didn't intend to implicate racism." This is in no way proof he is guilty, but it is in no way proof he is innocent. Plus, as stated, it is irrelevant - fire him for being a racist or fire him for being inept, either way your company is better off.
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