Congrats to CB4 - Page 7
Old 06-25-2012, 12:34 AM   #121 (permalink)
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He is at least a respectable PG if he can take them to the finals while playing such a big part while being at that position.
I already addressed this in my previous post.

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So they faltered? No doubt? And 3 of the losses were close at the end.

If you conceed that, then saying the PG sucks is unfair. With the exception of the final game, OKC had a chance to win all those games without doing anything else offensively.

So, theoretically, based on what you've said, they could have won the title and you'd still say Westbrook "sucks" as a PG. Nice. That is irrational.
And OKC, theoretically, could have also won the title in spite of some shaky moments defensively if their bigs and role players were more involved in the offense.

Goes both ways.
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:36 AM   #122 (permalink)
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What are ya'll even arguing about?

TORAP has been a solid poster for years...isn't the whole point of these forums to talk shit to eachother (with camaraderie and jest of course). Guy has bigged up and shat on the same players for as long as I can remember and always seems fairly level headed when it comes to not allowing his personal preference stand in the way of fact.

That being said. I hate Westbrook too. I think he's trash at playing team basketball. He might be the most athletic player in the league and a great scorer. He's a bad point guard though. You put JKidd on OKC, they might've still made the finals too.

That's why Dallas did it last year. When they were down big in all those games, they stuck to team basketball and it always allowed them a chance to come back or win.

OKC abandoned that concept in the finals and paid the ultimate price.
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:40 AM   #123 (permalink)
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And OKC, theoretically, could have also won the title in spite of some shaky moments defensively if their bigs and role players were more involved in the offense.

Goes both ways.
No, you're making an assumption that if the bigs were more involved that the offense would have operated better. Like game 4, Westbrook shot over 60%. Durant still scored an efficient 28. You don't know that involving the bigs would have made the offense more potent. Even if OKC could have adapted to Miami's adjustments. We do know that a few extra stops would have decreased Miami's offensive output.

Like I said, OKC's offense managed a 110 rating 4 out of 5 games. Offense was not this huge issue. Many people, including sports writers are missing their real achilles heal. It's missing the forest by looking at a few trees. Saying the defense "sucked" at times is a fairer comment than Westrbrook sucks at PG.
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:42 AM   #124 (permalink)
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Anyway, I'm done talking about Westbrook here. Fire up a thread specifically to OKC if TORap or anyone else thinks his PG play was the problem.
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:48 AM   #125 (permalink)
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Anyway, I'm done talking about Westbrook here. Fire up a thread specifically to OKC if TORap or anyone else thinks his PG play was the problem.
His playmaking and passing were.

Run tape and you'll see non stop opportunities missed for his teammates when he just drove, shot, or turned it over. (Even though, he did score very well both with the midrange and driving in).

We'll leave it for another thread though...
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:39 AM   #126 (permalink)
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Thank goodness you don't take the internet seriously.
Good one.
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:54 AM   #127 (permalink)
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His playmaking and passing were.

Run tape and you'll see non stop opportunities missed for his teammates when he just drove, shot, or turned it over. (Even though, he did score very well both with the midrange and driving in).

We'll leave it for another thread though...
I couldn't help getting in this convo, even though it's OT. But how are people blaming Westbrook? Sure he isn't the prototype pg, but that's what made them the best team in the west. All season long he's killing it an helping lead OKC to the finals - with that same type of play. Then in the finals, he gets blamed for playing that way. It's ridiculous.
If anyone is to blame its harden ( the invisible man), or ibaka (invisible man #2), or sefalosha. Not the guy keeping them in most games and taking half of the offensive load.
If they'd have won, people would be calling Westbrook the best pg in the game right now, but they lose, and he gets burried with criticism.
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:07 AM   #128 (permalink)
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I couldn't help getting in this convo, even though it's OT. But how are people blaming Westbrook? Sure he isn't the prototype pg, but that's what made them the best team in the west. All season long he's killing it an helping lead OKC to the finals - with that same type of play. Then in the finals, he gets blamed for playing that way. It's ridiculous.
If anyone is to blame its harden ( the invisible man), or ibaka (invisible man #2), or sefalosha. Not the guy keeping them in most games and taking half of the offensive load.
If they'd have won, people would be calling Westbrook the best pg in the game right now, but they lose, and he gets burried with criticism.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not pinning this all on WB.

I blame the whole team. They just stopped playing intense, team basektball. I'm just mentioning the fact that I don't like his game (although, as previously stated, he's an athletic specimen and a very, very talented scorer).
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:08 PM   #129 (permalink)
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Guys, maybe the team just isn't built right, at this exact moment, to win. Blaming one guy on a games outcome is a bit lame.
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:16 PM   #130 (permalink)
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Yea as a team they just had terrible defence...I thought that was more frustrating to watch than their offence.
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Old 06-25-2012, 01:19 PM   #131 (permalink)
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Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not pinning this all on WB.

I blame the whole team. They just stopped playing intense, team basektball. I'm just mentioning the fact that I don't like his game (although, as previously stated, he's an athletic specimen and a very, very talented scorer).
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Yea as a team they just had terrible defence...I thought that was more frustrating to watch than their offence.
It's not that their defense was that bad just Miami's offense was clicking and when it does it's that good. When you have role players like Battier, Chalmers, Miller, Haslem stepping up with Bosh, LBJ and Wade all at the same time there is no defense in the league that can stop that. Instead of looking for reasons for why OKC lost maybe it's nothing more than Miami was that good.
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Old 06-25-2012, 01:23 PM   #132 (permalink)
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Guys, maybe the team just isn't built right, at this exact moment, to win. Blaming one guy on a games outcome is a bit lame.
That's a good point. IMO that team just came across the NBA juggernaut in the Finals and their inexperience came out. Jordan didn't win till he was 28, LBJ 27, etc, etc. Seasoning and knowing and being ready are important components when it comes to the play-offs.
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Old 06-25-2012, 01:52 PM   #133 (permalink)
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It's not that their defense was that bad just Miami's offense was clicking and when it does it's that good. When you have role players like Battier, Chalmers, Miller, Haslem stepping up with Bosh, LBJ and Wade all at the same time there is no defense in the league that can stop that. Instead of looking for reasons for why OKC lost maybe it's nothing more than Miami was that good.
Definitely in game 5, yeah.

You can't beat a team that's playing that level. Everyone trusts each other, making the extra passes, helping and communicating on D. That kind of thing trumps talent most times. It just so happens that Miami has the talent AND they were playing great, fluid basketball.
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Old 06-25-2012, 05:02 PM   #134 (permalink)
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No, you're making an assumption that if the bigs were more involved that the offense would have operated better. Like game 4, Westbrook shot over 60%. Durant still scored an efficient 28. You don't know that involving the bigs would have made the offense more potent. Even if OKC could have adapted to Miami's adjustments. We do know that a few extra stops would have decreased Miami's offensive output.

Like I said, OKC's offense managed a 110 rating 4 out of 5 games. Offense was not this huge issue. Many people, including sports writers are missing their real achilles heal. It's missing the forest by looking at a few trees. Saying the defense "sucked" at times is a fairer comment than Westrbrook sucks at PG.
*shrug* I saw how they played against SAS and that was proof enough for me. I thought that it was their best series of the playoffs precisely because they played some unselfish ball.

I've never been one to get too hung up on ratings and other "Hollinger" type stats. I draw my conclusions from what I see from game to game and go from there.

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What are ya'll even arguing about?

TORAP has been a solid poster for years...isn't the whole point of these forums to talk shit to eachother (with camaraderie and jest of course). Guy has bigged up and shat on the same players for as long as I can remember and always seems fairly level headed when it comes to not allowing his personal preference stand in the way of fact.

That being said. I hate Westbrook too. I think he's trash at playing team basketball. He might be the most athletic player in the league and a great scorer. He's a bad point guard though. You put JKidd on OKC, they might've still made the finals too.

That's why Dallas did it last year. When they were down big in all those games, they stuck to team basketball and it always allowed them a chance to come back or win.

OKC abandoned that concept in the finals and paid the ultimate price.
Appreciate the support dude.

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Guys, maybe the team just isn't built right, at this exact moment, to win. Blaming one guy on a games outcome is a bit lame.
That's entirely possible. I've said before that I think they need a real PG. At any rate we'll see in the coming years.

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Definitely in game 5, yeah.

You can't beat a team that's playing that level. Everyone trusts each other, making the extra passes, helping and communicating on D. That kind of thing trumps talent most times. It just so happens that Miami has the talent AND they were playing great, fluid basketball.
Yep.

Personally, I think that OKC failed in the finals this year for the same reasons that MIA failed against the Mavs last year. They both got beat by teams that were just playing great team basketball from top to bottom. If OKC learns from their mistakes the way that MIA did I'd expect them to be serious threat for years to come.

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Old 06-25-2012, 05:05 PM   #135 (permalink)
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TORap vs. the World.

Coming to a theatre near you.
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Old 06-25-2012, 05:10 PM   #136 (permalink)
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TORap vs. the World.

Coming to a theatre near you.
Ha. Nah. I know that there are guys out there who see things my way (or are at least fairly close to the same POV).

If some people want to take things personally and hate then they're welcome to. No skin off my back.
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Old 06-25-2012, 05:14 PM   #137 (permalink)
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If OKC learns from their mistakes the way that MIA did I'd expect them to be serious threat for years to come.
100% true.

Now...When Miami signs Ray Ray and tab a real center, it might be awhile before OKC takes on that final hurdle.

***edit: Can you imagine if Curry puts it together for next year....lmao
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Old 06-25-2012, 06:41 PM   #138 (permalink)
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*shrug* I saw how they played against SAS and that was proof enough for me. I thought that it was their best series of the playoffs precisely because they played some unselfish ball.

I've never been one to get too hung up on ratings and other "Hollinger" type stats. I draw my conclusions from what I see from game to game and go from there.
It's NOT a Hollinger type stat, and I've explained that to you several times. Offensive rating is a very valuable way of confirming whether or not an offense is working. As I said before, it's the number of points you score per 100 possessions, while accounting for pace of play and free throw attempts. Things like just looking at fg% and points scored are the misleading ones, because they hide other ways scoring is occuring.

And if you look at the flip side (defensive rating), it is a remarkable predictor of which team wins the title. In the past 25 years, only two teams have won the NBA title with a defensive rating outside the top 10: 2001 Lakers and 1995 Rockets. Those two teams were anomalies though, because LA had a bunch of injuries and then got healthy during the playoffs and Houston made a midseason trade for Drexler and entered the playoffs with a different team.

Those two stats in particular are very informative. They are not nearly as subjective as others.

And people would be well served to pay attention to them. Some people put money on Miami simple because OKC finished with the 11th defensive rating during the regular season. OKC couldn't beat history!

And these stats get used because anybody can say " I saw that or I saw this when watching the game." It doesn't make it true.

Last edited by Bill Haverchuck; 06-25-2012 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:08 PM   #139 (permalink)
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Both teams played great, and because of that it came down to both teams' greats, of which Miami's great outplayed OKC's great on both ends of the court.
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:24 PM   #140 (permalink)
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Both teams played great, and because of that it came down to both teams' greats, of which Miami's great outplayed OKC's great on both ends of the court.
Miami played great.
OKC, not so much.
Durant played great.... Westbrook played ok.... The rest of the team stunk it up.
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