Bucher: Expect Howard to be traded this summer - Page 3
Old 04-18-2011, 12:26 PM   #41 (permalink)
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It's been a players league for a long long time. Bosh and Lebron were free agents. They didn't start anything. And there's too much emphasis on retaining star players. Why should anybody spend their entire career in one place when there just doesn't appear to an opportunity for a team to grow? Build good teams and let stars emerge, instead of hoping for a star that a team might form around.

Legendary players played for the great teams they were a part of, not to be loyal to a city that they were putting on their back. That's just a fantasy of a fanbase. How many times have players stuck around just for a paycheque and then made all kinds of demands? Loyalty shmoyalty.
I agree with you for the most part, but my beef is with those players who leave when a organization has dedicated to past year to surrounding the the star with players to fit his game. Look at Cleveland, look at Orlando, They were and are built around Lebron and Dwight. And now they just jet? You can't tell me that Cleveland didn't give a shit, they had the best team in the league at one point. I think because of the movement, other stars are feeling the pressure and realize that they need to make the next "big 3" in order to win a championship. It's going to put a lot of organizations in the basement for year to come in my opinion.
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:42 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Not everybody can make the conference finals or NBA finals each year. It's hard. You can't just blame a GM for something that is statistically unlikely. If a GM builds a team that is capable of contending, the GM is not to blame.

These players had teams that were capable of contending at some point, and could have again:

Melo got to the conference finals in Denver. Wanted out.

Amare got to the conference finals in Phoenix. Wanted out, although money was a factor.

Deron got to the conference finals in Utah. Apparently wanted out.

Lebron got to the NBA finals in Cleveland. Wanted out.

Dwight got to the NBA finals in Orlando. Rumored to want out.

These organizations, and the GMs running them, wanted to win. Statistically, they can't all win everything. And even after super teams get created, there will still be some teams with a "big 3" who are going to lose. Will the players finally get some blame in those situation.?


In my opinion, your post is probably just code for more Bosh crap.
LOL... and I have no problem with any of those teams (save CLE) and how they were assembled because they DID try to build a winner and not simply rely on one star.

I've missed your condescension. It's really quite refreshing.
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Old 04-18-2011, 03:15 PM   #43 (permalink)
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I have no problem with any of those teams (save CLE) and how they were assembled because they DID try to build a winner and not simply rely on one star.
Except Duca mentioned Melo, Deron, and Dwight in his post, yet you made no distinction. You said the GMs are to blame. Okay, so it was code.

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I've missed your condescension. It's really quite refreshing.
Ha
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Old 04-18-2011, 05:59 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Dwight is going to DC to team up with Wall and Harrison Barnes
why do that when you got triple double mcgee there.
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Old 04-18-2011, 06:04 PM   #45 (permalink)
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If they trade Dwight it'll be a disgrace. I mean come on... 3 time reigning defensive player of the year, arguably one of the best centers in NBA history and they want to trade him? Wow... do they think they can find a better center than Dwight? They should go on a trading spree and trade Turkoglu, Arenas and all the bad players and make something happen.
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Old 04-18-2011, 06:08 PM   #46 (permalink)
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One of the best C's in history? That's just crazy talk now. He doesn't even enter into the discussion.
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Old 04-18-2011, 06:15 PM   #47 (permalink)
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One of the best C's in history? That's just crazy talk now. He doesn't even enter into the discussion.
Yes he does. You won't see a center like Dwight for years to come. It was Shaq and now its Dwight. Players like this don't just walk into the NBA every year.
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Old 04-18-2011, 06:28 PM   #48 (permalink)
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I agree with you for the most part, but my beef is with those players who leave when a organization has dedicated to past year to surrounding the the star with players to fit his game. Look at Cleveland, look at Orlando, They were and are built around Lebron and Dwight. And now they just jet? You can't tell me that Cleveland didn't give a shit, they had the best team in the league at one point. I think because of the movement, other stars are feeling the pressure and realize that they need to make the next "big 3" in order to win a championship. It's going to put a lot of organizations in the basement for year to come in my opinion.
Cleveland sucked other than James...
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Old 04-18-2011, 06:33 PM   #49 (permalink)
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because that was the point of my post...
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Old 04-18-2011, 06:57 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Cleveland sucked other than James...
The funny thing is, a number of people around here thought they'd make the playoffs without James. Cleveland management built a team that complemented James well. And they made every effort to bring in players.

The rest of the post isn't addressed at you specifically, Chigg.

In my opinion, Cleveland's problems started when they signed Larry Hughes back in 2005. They had a brief window of time to bring in a FA with their cap space. Hughes came off a season of 22 ppg, 5 apg, 3 spg in Washington. it looked like a good signing, but he had injury problems and never played that well again. Then Lebron signed his extension which meant no chance of having cap space again for several years. But Cleveland still managed to make the Finals in 2007, so, rather than wait for contracts to expire and go after FAs down the road, there was pressure to try and immediately upgrade the roster any way possible. They had no high picks, due to their record. No cap space. Cleveland's only option was to shuffle their bad contracts in trades while hoping the players they got back would slightly improve the team - guys like Wally, Ben Wallace, Mo Williams, Shaq...



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LOL... and I have no problem with any of those teams (save CLE)
Oh, I forgot to remind you, TORap, you said that Cleveland's roster was capable of making the playoffs at the beginning of the year. You thought they were a playoff team without James and that Cleveland had a respectable roster, yet that's the team and GM you have a problem with. Okay.

If I'm condescending, then you're captain hindsight.
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Old 04-18-2011, 08:10 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Yes he does. You won't see a center like Dwight for years to come. It was Shaq and now its Dwight. Players like this don't just walk into the NBA every year.
There's not even the slightest comparison between Shaq and Dwight. Well ok - there is the slightest. Dwight is Shaq-slight. And it's not a given that Shaq was the greatest, though that certainly has to be argued. Dwight does not enter the argument.
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Old 04-18-2011, 08:17 PM   #52 (permalink)
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I see by the end of Dwight career, he will be in the discussion. I mean he's still young, has like 3 DPOY and his teams have always been competitiveness.
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Old 04-18-2011, 08:22 PM   #53 (permalink)
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There's not even the slightest comparison between Shaq and Dwight. Well ok - there is the slightest. Dwight is Shaq-slight. And it's not a given that Shaq was the greatest, though that certainly has to be argued. Dwight does not enter the argument.
Why doesn't Dwight enter the argument? Believe it or not, its possible for young players to be great. Look at Lebron James, arguably the best Small Forward in NBA history but there will always be doubters and say he shouldn't even be discussed. Dwight is the only reason the Magic are a defensive presence, and once you factor in guys like Turkoglu who refuse to play defense, it just shows how much Dwight does.
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Old 04-18-2011, 08:39 PM   #54 (permalink)
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He's won nothing, he still has no reliable offensive moves, is a detriment late in games with bad FT shooting, and doesn't have the heart to assert his will on games, instead taking himself out of games with a temperament prone to frustration and bad body language.

I will say this - it's a little bit inexplicable that he isn't in the argument, considering his athletic ability, but he simply has not shown the heart to convert that into results. You've got Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, Malone, Walton and Ewing before you get to Dwight. He might be able to approach or surpass a few of those guys, but it's too late for him to get close to most of them.
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Old 04-18-2011, 08:41 PM   #55 (permalink)
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no ones arguing the skill of dwight. whats being argued is the fact that he is not in the discussion for the best centre ever, i would go as far to say top five ever. guys like hakeem, shaq, even ben in his prime, these would be top candidates and more. he will be in the discussion in the future no doubt, but in this point of his career he will not be. winning a championship would put him in the discussion, IF he did it the honest joe way.
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Old 04-18-2011, 09:00 PM   #56 (permalink)
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I'm arguing the skill. He's got very little offensive game after all this time, and with all his athletic ability. He's been turnover prone, and when he meets a challenge he usually deflates and sulks or smiles as if it doesn't matter. He hasn't come close to harnessing what he needs to in terms of skills to be anything like anyone in the top five.
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Old 04-18-2011, 09:06 PM   #57 (permalink)
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I'm arguing the skill. He's got very little offensive game after all this time, and with all his athletic ability. He's been turnover prone, and when he meets a challenge he usually deflates and sulks or smiles as if it doesn't matter. He hasn't come close to harnessing what he needs to in terms of skills to be anything like anyone in the top five.
hes averaging what? 23 points a game? sure its not shaq dominent but neither was olajewan to name a top centre. neither was ben. also, he is very dominant and has polished his offensive skills but there really so much you can do when people jump on ur back to stop you from scoring. if he improves his ft percentage to 80 or greater then we have a serious argument for top 5. but even with what he is doing now, the man is damn near unstoppable in the paint
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Old 04-18-2011, 09:09 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Oh, I forgot to remind you, TORap, you said that Cleveland's roster was capable of making the playoffs at the beginning of the year. You thought they were a playoff team without James and that Cleveland had a respectable roster, yet that's the team and GM you have a problem with. Okay.

If I'm condescending, then you're captain hindsight.
I also thought that the Bucks would make the post-season and that Philly would suck.

I thought that CLE's defense would allow them to squeak into the post-season in the weak East much in the way that the Pacers ended up doing. I was wrong. Didn't help that Mo Williams and Jamison missed 25 games and Sideshow Bob missed over 50 either.

I believe that I was one of the only ones who predicted the Spurs to be near the top of the league though.
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Old 04-18-2011, 09:16 PM   #59 (permalink)
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I think Dwight has the ability to be a top 5 center of all time, he is more like 15th- 20th if you are looking at it from a Hall of Fame stand point. Russel, Chamberlian, Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Parish, Walton, Robinson. There are lot of names That I would put up there before his. He would jump pretty significantly if he won a championship.
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