Broussard: Boston offered Rondo/Green for Westbrook/Perkins - Page 3

Go Back   Raptors Forum | Toronto Raptors Forums & Message Boards > NBA Discussion > NBA Talk

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-26-2011, 01:39 PM   #41 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,433
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
i completely understand that and have made that case before. not sure how you could possibly claim, at this point in the debate, that i don't understand that.

you have a habit of arguing against a point that isn't being made, and it is glaring in this situation.
I must be some sort of masochist then lol.

Why in God's name would I argue just for the sake of arguing? Trust me... my life isn't THAT boring.

The point of the matter is this.

I happen to think that Rondo is a very good PG who HELPS his team more than he hurts it. I'm about 99.9% sure that there's a plethora of video evidence that would back that claim.

If some people want to nitpick his game and ignore the complete package simply because he doesn't have a sweet J they're welcome to.... as long as they realize that their view is actually pretty stunted.

There were those who said that Dirk was "too soft" and "too poor defensively" to ever win a title. That he was "too difficult to build around as a 7ft shooter. The pundits were proven wrong there too.... even though Dirk's game was never as complete as KG's or TD's.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 01:52 PM   #42 (permalink)
www.torontoraptorsforum.com

giant steps
 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,191
Representing:
Default

here's how you, in this case, are arguing against a point that isn't being made:


there was an argument about paul vs rondo.

there was another argument about paul vs westbrook.

both of these are perfectly valid, and have their points and counter-points. and for the most part, so one was saying that he doesn't help his team more than hurt it. they were saying that, in their opinion, he falls short of the super-star status because he has a significant hole or two in his game. in the paul-rondo thread i actually went on at length about his toughness as an asset that the other guys may not have, so it is pretty clear that i see lots of value in rondo in some areas.

but then you came back after game 1 with an 'i told you so' post, as if that somehow validates your case in the argument. it is a 1-game sample that could be countered by plenty of one-game scenarios in which he fell flat, some of them on the biggest stage in the world. but the overall case isn't about one game. in fact, it is about a pattern of inconsistency, shyness in the clutch and a wonky jumper that can be hit and miss. and the fact that you called 2 posters out on that one-game sample is what i have been reacting to. it is based on, either a total lack of understanding of the criticism that has been made against rondo, or a myopic view of what constitutes a reasonable sample size.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 02:31 PM   #43 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,433
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
here's how you, in this case, are arguing against a point that isn't being made:


there was an argument about paul vs rondo.

there was another argument about paul vs westbrook.

both of these are perfectly valid, and have their points and counter-points. and for the most part, so one was saying that he doesn't help his team more than hurt it. they were saying that, in their opinion, he falls short of the super-star status because he has a significant hole or two in his game. in the paul-rondo thread i actually went on at length about his toughness as an asset that the other guys may not have, so it is pretty clear that i see lots of value in rondo in some areas.

but then you came back after game 1 with an 'i told you so' post, as if that somehow validates your case in the argument. it is a 1-game sample that could be countered by plenty of one-game scenarios in which he fell flat, some of them on the biggest stage in the world. but the overall case isn't about one game. in fact, it is about a pattern of inconsistency, shyness in the clutch and a wonky jumper that can be hit and miss. and the fact that you called 2 posters out on that one-game sample is what i have been reacting to. it is based on, either a total lack of understanding of the criticism that has been made against rondo, or a myopic view of what constitutes a reasonable sample size.
1) Why are we talking about Rondo vs. Paul right now? That discussion had it's own thread and as far as I was concerned it seemed to be a dead issue. Did you leave something unsaid? Or were you unhappy with the outcome?

2) My response wasn't directed at you, but was to Insider and Clutch who seemed to take issue (based on comments made in this very thread) with Rondo's effectiveness on the floor at the PG position. I countered the argument, bringing up the point that what Rondo lacks in a jumper he has in other areas of the game... areas that he excels in when compared to other PGs. In spite of the fact that his jumper is shaky and he lacks confidence with it at times he has found a way to score the ball and/or find open shots for teammates. He's done this over the course of many, MANY games... both in the regular season and the playoffs. I'd very much like to know about the "plenty of one-game scenarios where he fell flat" and see how the number of those games compare to the rest as a whole. I suspect that the number of bad games that he's had isn't really any more than any other all-star in the league.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 03:04 PM   #44 (permalink)
www.torontoraptorsforum.com

giant steps
 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,191
Representing:
Default

oh for crying out loud, i give up. you are completely unable to counter the point being made.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 03:44 PM   #45 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,433
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
oh for crying out loud, i give up. you are completely unable to counter the point being made.
LOL... what exactly is your point then?

This particular argument has NOTHING to do with Rondo vs. CP3.

Several posters here have a history of "pooh-poohing" Rondo's accomplishments because of the fact that he plays with the Big 3.

I think that this is wrong.

I think that he IS in fact an excellent PG in his own right.

Is he a perfect player? Of course not.

Does he have some holes in his game? Of course he does.

Do these holes prevent him from being an a valuable piece (possibly the most important piece) of the Celts' lineup? No. They don't.

Do I CARE if he's considered a "superstar" in any sense of the word? NO. Guys like Noah and Marion aren't superstars either and I have a lot of love for them too.

My "I told you so post" referenced a single game in a LONG line of excellent games that Rondo has had OVER THE LAST 2-3 YEARS. He's proved time & time again that, in spite of his shortcomings, he CAN be a very effective player out on the court.

I can't possibly make it any more clear than that. That's DIRECTLY addressing the topics that you brought up just a few posts above. If you STILL find some ambiguity in my arguments then I suggest you just ignore my posts from now on and save yourself the headache.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 03:54 PM   #46 (permalink)
www.torontoraptorsforum.com

giant steps
 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,191
Representing:
Default

calling out 2 guys based on one game when the debate has always been about a long-term issue. is that clear enough?
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 04:13 PM   #47 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,433
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
calling out 2 guys based on one game when the debate has always been about a long-term issue. is that clear enough?
If you really think that all of my arguments as they relate to Rondo are based off of ONE game then I can understand why you're confused and frustrated.

It was an idle comment made in good fun.

Way to blow it out of proportion.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 04:22 PM   #48 (permalink)
www.torontoraptorsforum.com

giant steps
 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,191
Representing:
Default

i don't think all of your opinions are based on one game, you have made that clear and i have not disputed it in the context of the rondo debate.

but i saw you use one game as an 'i told you so' in this case. it was an idle comment for you, and an idle response from me to call you out for it. all the rest of this was in response to you thinking i was somehow critiquing rondo, when what i was simply critiquing you for using one game as vindication of your argument.

thus the 'game 1' response.

thus the point about re-framing the debate.

thus the comment about arguing against a point that has not been made.

all of this should have been clear early on, in which case this wouldn't have gone out of proportion. but you did not (and may still not) understand that.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 04:24 PM   #49 (permalink)
streets ahead.

Senior Member
 
SomeDPlease's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,771
Representing:
Default

Come on guys, let's just make a pros and cons list.
SomeDPlease is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 04:34 PM   #50 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,433
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
i don't think all of your opinions are based on one game, you have made that clear and i have not disputed it in the context of the rondo debate.

but i saw you use one game as an 'i told you so' in this case. it was an idle comment for you, and an idle response from me to call you out for it. all the rest of this was in response to you thinking i was somehow critiquing rondo, when what i was simply critiquing you for using one game as vindication of your argument.

thus the 'game 1' response.

thus the point about re-framing the debate.

thus the comment about arguing against a point that has not been made.

all of this should have been clear early on, in which case this wouldn't have gone out of proportion. but you did not (and may still not) understand that.
I suppose that this is going to continue to be a point of contention then.

Would it have made you happier if I would have said "I told you so" after the Celts won their title? Or after Rondo averaged a triple-double against the Bulls in a playoff series?

Would waiting 10 games in somehow make a difference in this case? 20 games? 50 games? The whole season?

If we're talking about Tracy Murray or Tony Delk scoring 50 pts you can certainly point to the game as an abberation of sorts since that was FAR out of the norm for both players during their careers.

Rondo's 13 assists weren't out of the norm.

Rondo's 5 steals weren't out of the norm.

The energy that Rondo played with during that game wasn't out of the norm.

Rondo's 31 points definitely were (perhaps part in due to NYK's poor D and part in due to Pierce missing from the lineup).

I see nothing wrong with drawing attention to a stellar game from Rondo unless you think that he won't keep up his all-star-calibre level of play.

As I said before, I'm pretty high on Deandre Jordan as well yet I made no mention of the 8 blks that he had against GS, did I? And why is that? Pretty simple... HE is still on his way to proving that he can bring those types of games on a nightly basis.

Rondo is already there and has been for a while.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 04:37 PM   #51 (permalink)
www.torontoraptorsforum.com

giant steps
 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,191
Representing:
Default

sure man. i'll make sure to call you out each time he has a bad game. sounds fun.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 04:49 PM   #52 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,433
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
sure man. i'll make sure to call you out each time he has a bad game. sounds fun.
Sure thing lol. As long as I can do the same thing to CP3, Rose and Deron.

Deal?

Pretty sure that all 4 will have far more good games than bad based on their previous bodies of work.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 04:55 PM   #53 (permalink)
www.torontoraptorsforum.com

giant steps
 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,191
Representing:
Default

why don't we just leave out the calling out other posters for results from one game? isn't that just what i have been suggesting all along?
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 05:16 PM   #54 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,433
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
why don't we just leave out the calling out other posters for results from one game? isn't that just what i have been suggesting all along?
Why does this strike such a nerve for you? Were you as upset when people were laughing and delighting in Bosh's every subpar game last season?

Relax. There aren't any personal attacks going on here so I really don't see the need for any sort of censorship.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 05:21 PM   #55 (permalink)
www.torontoraptorsforum.com

giant steps
 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,191
Representing:
Default

as i said, it was an idle comment from you and an idle response from me. the rest is simply lack of understanding. i'm well relaxed and on vacation at the inlaws'. thus the plenty of time to spend on this.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 05:24 PM   #56 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,433
Representing:
Default

Perfect. Then I'll consider the matter closed at this point.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 07:40 PM   #57 (permalink)
up there

][__ . //-\\ .
 
ClutchCity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Brampton, Ontario
Posts: 3,037
Representing:
Default

If you seriously believe you didn't call me and insider out based on one game, ask yourself if you would have posted in this thread if Rondo had a bad game. You think I haven't seen these types of games from Rondo before? We know what he's capable of but that's not the debate.
ClutchCity is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2011, 02:35 PM   #58 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,433
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ClutchCity View Post
If you seriously believe you didn't call me and insider out based on one game, ask yourself if you would have posted in this thread if Rondo had a bad game. You think I haven't seen these types of games from Rondo before? We know what he's capable of but that's not the debate.
Give your head a shake. Honestly.

Let me lay it out one last time so that you understand me perfectly.

I could have posted in this thread on opening night.... 1 week into the season.... or 10 weeks in. It wouldn't have mattered. Why? Because Rondo is good enough to have games like these on a regular basis. If he was a scrub who barely ever played and came off the bench with those numbers then you'd have a point... but he's been doing this for a while now.

I'm happy that you realize what Rondo's capable of. Hopefully that'll slow down the hate train that you get on every time you don't like a player.

I thought this was a dead issue.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2011, 06:30 PM   #59 (permalink)
www.torontoraptorsforum.com

giant steps
 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,191
Representing:
Default

when guys have their whole careers ahead of them the debate of who is better will never be dead. that's the whole point. 1 game, a few games, whatever. if we trade call outs all year long based on a good game here and there for anyone, we are never really advancing any kind of constructive conversation.

vindication is really not achievable for anyone until all the dust settles. that's why i engage in the ongoing discussion but turn my nose up at calling anyone out for their opinion regarding 'better than'.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2011, 06:48 PM   #60 (permalink)
up there

][__ . //-\\ .
 
ClutchCity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Brampton, Ontario
Posts: 3,037
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
Give your head a shake. Honestly.
smh

Quote:
I could have posted in this thread on opening night.... 1 week into the season.... or 10 weeks in. It wouldn't have mattered. Why? Because Rondo is good enough to have games like these on a regular basis.
You mean games where he scores 30 and dishes out more than 10 assists? Regular basis? Wow. I certainly don't agree there. He's capable of 11-14 ppg and 10-11 apg though, which is still unmatched by 95%+ of PGs in the league.

Quote:
If he was a scrub who barely ever played and came off the bench with those numbers then you'd have a point... but he's been doing this for a while now.
What's my point exactly? I always have to ask because of your comprehension problem. Who called him a scrub? NO ONE. I called the dude an elite PG. He's just not on the level of Rose/D-Will/Paul, but that doesn't mean he's a scrub lol.

Quote:
I'm happy that you realize what Rondo's capable of.
I always knew what he was capable of. Like I said, I watch my rival teams often. For the record, I actually defend Rondo when I argue with my roommates, but you take it too far.

Quote:
Hopefully that'll slow down the hate train that you get on every time you don't like a player.
I don't hate anyone in this league except LeBron and some of the other Heat players. Anyway, what exactly is supposed to "slow down the hate train"? This one game? I have watched Rondo OVER THE YEARS. That's what I base my judgement on, period. One game won't change anything. Everyone that had an opinion on Rondo based it on what they saw last year or the last couple of years. This one game SHOULD NOT affect your judgement in the slightest way. But then you come on here after he has a great game to rub it in our faces as if that game meant anything lol. Do you still believe you didn't have a knee-jerk reacting after the Knicks game? We don't believe you, you need more people.
ClutchCity is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24