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LX 04-23-2013 07:42 PM

Bill Simmons thinks Chris Bosh is pretty pretty pretty good
 
The 13th-annual ranking of the NBA's top-50 players, Part 2 - Grantland

Quote:

19. Chris Bosh
This is interesting …

2010 (age 25): 24.0 PPG, 10.8 RPG, 52% FG, 16.5 FGA, 8.4 FTA, 25.0 PER, 28.7 Usage, 36.1 MPG.

2013 (age 28): 16.6 PPG, 6.8 RPG, 54% FG, 12.3 FGA, 4.1 FTA, 20.0 PER, 22.7 Usage, 33.3 MPG

Everything's explainable. After all, Miami uses Bosh differently than Toronto did. It's playing glorified small ball, spreading everyone around the perimeter, and keeping the paint open for LeBron and the Heat's slash-and-kick stuff. It's working. They won 66 games (only the 13th team to do that), including 27 in a row (second-best streak ever), and they're 15 victories away from completing one of the most dominant basketball seasons we've ever seen.12 I guarantee Bosh enjoys playing for Miami more than he enjoyed being The Man for the 2010 Raptors.

Still, it's hard to look at those numbers without wondering, "Is Chris Bosh severely overqualified for the role that Miami gave him?"

The answer: NO! He's actually perfect. Basketball teams are like rock bands — ideally, you want an alpha dog, a phenomenal second banana, then an unselfish third star who's sacrificing something for the greater good. The most successful basketball teams usually have some variation of that structure, whether it's Bird, McHale and DJ; Magic, Kareem and Worthy; Jordan, Pippen and Grant/Rodman; Shaq, Kobe and Horry; Moses, Toney and Doc; Isiah, Dumars and Rodman; Chitwood, Flatch and Merle; you can just keep going and going.

In music, anytime a band can't resolve an alpha dog battle, the band breaks up no matter how well it might be doing. (Lennon and McCartney are the most famous example, with the Gallagher brothers being the most underrated. And if you think Russell Hammond and Jeff Bebe didn't break up in 1978 or 1979, you're crazy.) It's also impossible to keep that alpha dog/talented second banana/glue guy structure going indefinitely, if only because of egos, money, popularity, petty feuds and everything else. That's what makes it so inconceivable that the Rolling Stones still perform even though Jagger and Richards have offended each other in every conceivable way. And that's what makes U2 such a historical anomaly: They've been playing together for 37 years without ever breaking up, save for one late-'80s hiccup when they nearly imploded after an unexpected round of backlash to Rattle and Hum. Or as it's known in my house, The Hilariously Pretentious Rattle and Hum.

What's the best parallel between a basketball team and a rock band? The Eagles. I realized this while watching Showtime's History of the Eagles, Part One documentary,13 an insightful examination of an iconic band that, frankly, I'd never really thought about before. When I was a teenager in the mid-'80s, the classic-rock radio format gave broken-up bands like the Eagles a second life. You couldn't attend a high school party without hearing their greatest-hits album. And really, they were structured like this Miami team. Glenn Frey/Dwyane Wade considered himself a co–alpha dog; Don Henley/LeBron James diplomatically shared the stage/ball with him; and guitarist Bernie Leadon and bassist Randy Meisner semi-begrudgingly settled into their "glue guy" roles. Eventually, everyone came to the same conclusion.

This is stupid. We have a transcendent talent here in Henley/LeBron. This is his band/team. Let's ride this guy.

So that's what they did. Only it couldn't have worked without Frey/Wade accepting the reality of the situation. Which he did. For a while, anyway. As for the "glue guys," Leadon and Meisner were both gone by 1977, unable to accept being shoved into the background. Guess what? The band was never more popular than it was in 1977. The lesson, as always: You can always get new glue guys. The Eagles lasted until 1980 before self-combusting for all the typical reasons that bands break up (jealousy, drugs, creative burnout), then reunited 14 years later for all the usual reasons that bands reunite (money, money and money). In basketball, you can't reunite 14 years later and start selling out arenas again with a shittier version of yourselves. If you blow it, you can't get it back. Just ask Shaq and Kobe.

Which brings us back to Bosh, a franchise player on half the teams in the league, only someone who's been relegated to that dreaded "Hey, dude, just play bass, sing background vocals and we'll give you one song on every album" role in Miami. He's getting handsomely paid — $17.5 million this season, $19.1 million next year, then player options for $20.6 million and $22.1 million after that — and as long as he's happy being the third option on the decade's most dominant team, they can surely accommodate those numbers. We love to think players value winning over everything else, if only because that's how we think WE would be. Here's the reality: You never know. Bosh's motivations might change after he's won two titles and made upwards of $86 million (and counting) playing basketball. Maybe he'll want to be The Guy. Or maybe he loves his role and being a part of history. We don't know.

But here's what we do know …

If you believe Miami could replace Bosh by dealing him in a package for two or three cheaper players (and cobbling his numbers together), you're saying that he's semi-expendable. And I beg to differ.14 With the way Miami plays basketball right now, you'd want an athletic "small-ball 5" as your third wheel, preferably an intelligent, unselfish teammate who (a) doesn't need a ton of shots to thrive, and (b) doubles as an above-average shooter. Well, check out Bosh's per-game averages on shots from 16 to 23 feet: 5.0 attempts (eighth highest in the NBA), 2.6 makes (second highest), 52 percent (best of anyone who took more than 2.2 per game). Only Kevin Garnett can match the specific things that Bosh does for Miami … and KG might retire in two months.

Bringing everything full circle: In a fantasy league or a video game, you'd trade Bosh for Love every time. You wouldn't even blink. But for what Miami is trying to do, I think I'd want Bosh. He's an overqualified bass player who doesn't mind going out there and killing it night after night after night for a transcendent band. He's making big bucks, and he gets to tell his grandkids that he played with LeBron James on a team that won 27 straight. Maybe his numbers went down, but I'd say everything worked out for Chris Bosh.

jeffb 04-23-2013 07:48 PM

Who cares what he thinks about Bosh? Dude's been gone 3yrs and we have two threads about him today and pics of his wife's massive ass posted. Ok the ass pics are appreciated. :)

LX 04-23-2013 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 783654)
Who cares what he thinks about Bosh? Dude's been gone 3yrs and we have two threads about him today and pics of his wife's massive ass posted. Ok the ass pics are appreciated. :)

Yeah - I thought it might drive some people a little nuts. And I guess you care enough to feel the need to comment.

What does him being gone for 3 years have to do with shit? Gone is hardly the correct term. He is not HERE. But he has been far more present in the NBA. And more and more gaining recognition that is well-deserved.

Sam was singing his praises tonight on NBAtv as well.

jeffb 04-23-2013 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX (Post 783657)

Sam was singing his praises tonight on NBAtv as well.

Yippy. I mean, i actually don't mind Bosh but whatever.

carp 04-23-2013 08:13 PM

He's right, Bosh is a perfect third starter on that team. Just like when Cleveland got to the finals with Mo Williams.

LX 04-23-2013 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carp (Post 783665)
He's right, Bosh is a perfect third starter on that team. Just like when Cleveland got to the finals with Mo Williams.

Yeah - I don't think anyone thought there was only 18 guys worth trading Mo for. Or that Mo would be a franchise player, let me repeat that, a franchise player, for half the teams in the league.

jeffb 04-23-2013 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX (Post 783668)
Yeah - I don't think anyone thought there was only 18 guys worth trading Mo for.

Please, take a look at the players 20-50. There are plenty of players i'd rather have than Bosh. In fact i'd take most of those 30 players ahead of him.

LX 04-23-2013 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 783671)
Please, take a look at the players 20-50. There are plenty of players i'd rather have than Bosh. In fact i'd take most of those 30 players ahead of him.

Good to know. I'll start a separate thread when I can figure out a way to value your opinion as much as I do Bill Simmons'.

jeffb 04-23-2013 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX (Post 783685)
Good to know. I'll start a separate thread when I can figure out a way to value your opinion as much as I do Bill Simmons'.

20. Kevin Love
21. Tony Parker
22. Ricky Rubio
23. Al Horford
25. John Wall
26. LaMarcus Aldridge
27. Ty Lawson
30. Damian Lillard
31. Joakim Noah
32. Nikola Pekovic
35. Tyson Chandler
36. Rajon Rondo
37. Deron Williams
40. Jrue Holiday
44. Jonas Valanciunas


^ Players i would take ahead of Bosh.

bjjs 04-23-2013 10:58 PM

Bill Simmons obviously knows a thing or two about basketball.

Carlos Danger 04-23-2013 11:11 PM

Bosh brings the ruckus to the ladies

Someguy again 04-23-2013 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjjs (Post 783727)
Bill Simmons obviously knows a thing or two about basketball.

not as much as jeff tho

jeffb 04-23-2013 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Someguy again (Post 783730)
not as much as jeff tho

You saying you would take Bosh ahead of Horford, Aldridge, Rondo and players like that? Seriously?

Windex 04-23-2013 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 783688)
20. Kevin Love
21. Tony Parker
22. Ricky Rubio
23. Al Horford
25. John Wall
26. LaMarcus Aldridge
27. Ty Lawson
30. Damian Lillard
31. Joakim Noah
32. Nikola Pekovic
35. Tyson Chandler
36. Rajon Rondo
37. Deron Williams
40. Jrue Holiday

44. Jonas Valanciunas


^ Players i would take ahead of Bosh.

Bosh is better than the bolded players. Love is good if you play a 50 game season, but the season is 82 games long.

Someguy again 04-23-2013 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 783731)
You saying you would take Bosh ahead of Horford, Aldridge, Rondo and players like that? Seriously?

yes

in a system that needs a small-ball center that doesn't demand touches. yes, horford i might give the nod but he hasnt proven much in the playoffs, so i'll wait and see on that matchup.

a skilled played with a selfless mindset is quintessential to a championship team.

(btw read simmon's and lowe's criticism of rondo to see how much of his attitude poisons a team)

ps:
joakim noah is debatable, but he can't spread the floor for wade and james to operate in their systems.

this article was written for value of the player in their respective teams and the affect it has on their offense and defense, not individual skill sets or physical and statistical attributes. so would tony parker be better on the heat than bosh? nope. three players that need the ball and attack inside and run pick and roll would make miami's offense so readable.

how about kevin love? spreads the floor? yeah. rebounds? like a beast. but can play the 5 position? not so much, blocks shots? not as intimidating as a 6'11, 7 foot wing span bosh.

jeffb 04-23-2013 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windex (Post 783733)
Bosh is better than the bolded players. Love is good if you play a 50 game season, but the season is 82 games long.

Mehh, i can see that. Although Aldridge and Deron Williams imo are better but whatever

LX 04-23-2013 11:41 PM

It is a team game. I'll repeat that. It is a team game. Simmons accounts for that fully. That's what makes the Simmons rankings knowledgable and filled with insights. And what makes Jeff's lists of individual players worth very little.

jeffb 04-23-2013 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX (Post 783741)
It is a team game. I'll repeat that. It is a team game. Simmons accounts for that fully. That's what makes the Simmons rankings knowledgable and filled with insights. And what makes Jeff's lists of individual players worth very little.

Then make this thread about Bosh? Valanciunas is on the list.....Or why not just make it about the list itself, not the 19th player on that list?

pzabby 04-24-2013 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 783743)
Then make this thread about Bosh? Valanciunas is on the list.....Or why not just make it about the list itself, not the 19th player on that list?

he made it about bosh because he found it interesting how so many underrate him but how this analysis goes to strengthen the argument that bosh is critical to the heats success (as he showed in the playoffs)

at least I think thats what LX is getting at. correct me if im wrong

jeffb 04-24-2013 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pzabby (Post 783752)
goes to strengthen the argument that bosh is critical to the heats success (as he showed in the playoffs)

Meehh, did that need to be strengthened though? Really? Everyone knows he's a critical part of that team, the guy is an 8 time all-star.Whatever, just found it odd to center it on him considering the article was a good read on it's own, and no mention of Valanciunas who is on it.

Someguy again 04-24-2013 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX (Post 783741)
It is a team game. I'll repeat that. It is a team game. Simmons accounts for that fully. That's what makes the Simmons rankings knowledgable and filled with insights. And what makes Jeff's lists of individual players worth very little.

it's not like simmons has zach lowe, johnathan abrams, ben detrick and everyone at grantland to help perform research to back up his arguments. they're only analysts who watch 95% of the nba regular season games and breaks down every single possession because it's their day time jobs. so when he writes articles, he has the raw info on every team's system from the adjusting lineups, changing cultures, defensive and offensive breakdowns, coaching changes, player role changes, etc.

but who needs all that when you got the jeffb bot of the future!

look at that post count!

those cookie cutter posts!

the ass .gifs!

the constant criticisms of the leafs!

the ass .gifs.

cmon LX wake up and smell the attention deficit disorder! enjoy his lists, no need to worry about simmons, we hear his rich opinion enough on NBA halftime shows and grantland. not everyday you get a bot that knows your name and responds!

woodchuck 04-24-2013 04:52 AM

By the way, how cool is the Love-Bulls trade idea in this article?
Love for Deng, Butler, Mirotic and Charlotte pick. Maybe add Kirilenko and Boozer to balance out the rosters.
I've never thought/heard of a similar trade before but it makes so much sense.

LX 04-24-2013 07:49 AM

Imma gonna write a song called The Bot That Knows My Name.

TORaptor4Ever 04-26-2013 09:10 PM

:)

rapsmannn 04-27-2013 01:37 AM

in the last two round of the playoffs in 2012 for miami i thought he was the second best player for miami over wade,

he is legit difference maker, he made us a .500 team, well put that together with lebron and wade well that makes them unstoppable

JoeyJoJo Shabbadu 05-01-2013 12:23 PM

Good article. Well written. Too bad some of its completely wrong and some people took everything out of context.

Bosh is not a franchise player. He couldn't carry this team and he can't carry any team on his own. He is a bass player and maybe 2nd banana at best, but in know way should any team make him a number 1... and if they do they would probabaly be in the bottom 2/3 of the standings perpetually.

I still wonder if the Heat could be better without him and I think the answer is yes. Bosh is 19 million Miller another 5-6. For 25 million they could (keeping this intentionally generic) get the best 6th man and an above average C or PF that rebounds better and defends better to improve yet more in all areas. And probabaly still have pocket change.

But if they win they win and why ruin it... but I still think they could be even better.

carp 05-01-2013 12:35 PM

Take Lebron off that team and nobody is talking about Miami as anything special. Lebron is the best player in the game. Bosh is no more important on that team than Mario Chalmers or Udonis Haslem.

bjjs 05-01-2013 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carp (Post 785418)
Take Lebron off that team and nobody is talking about Miami as anything special. Lebron is the best player in the game. Bosh is no more important on that team than Mario Chalmers or Udonis Haslem.

That's the ticket...

whatever helps you sleep at night Carp.

carp 05-01-2013 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjjs (Post 785422)
That's the ticket...

whatever helps you sleep at night Carp.

lol... yeah, agreed.... It's amazing how good Cleveland was with Lebron.

'trane 05-01-2013 01:01 PM

it is an interesting point. both cleveland and miami went 66-16 in their best seasons with lebron. i think the heat clearly have better talent than that cavs team, but does it matter when you have lebron?

pzabby 05-01-2013 02:38 PM

imagine if we had won the 03 draft


carter and lebron on the same team.....

bjjs 05-01-2013 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane (Post 785427)
it is an interesting point. both cleveland and miami went 66-16 in their best seasons with lebron. i think the heat clearly have better talent than that cavs team, but does it matter when you have lebron?

Who knows? Lebron is also significantly better now then he was with Cleveland.


The Heat were 5-1 without Lebron this year. Take it for what it's worth - which isn't really anything - except is the best measure of the Heat without Lebron.

Lebron being great doesn't make other players worse for playing with him. It's to easy to say that Bosh is as important as Haslem simply because Lebron is a god. By the same token we could see Duncan, Chris Paul, Gasol, Durant, all join the heat and be equally as useless simply because their talents aren't needed alongside the one true basketball phenom.

Youtube the pacers/heat or heat/oklahoma series last year. And honestly tell me that Bosh = Haslem.

It's a ridiculous notion that I've wasted far to many words on. Replace Bosh with a second Haslem - methinks this second title would be much harder to come by.

Someguy again 05-01-2013 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carp (Post 785418)
Bosh is no more important on that team than Mario Chalmers or Udonis Haslem.

isn't that a little too degrading of a comparison?

bosh is only 19th on the list of course lebron would be number 1 just because he makes teams better, franchises richer and nike happier, but we all saw how much roy hibbert demolished the miami frontcourt last year when bosh was out for a few games during the playoff series. he was taking apart joel, haslem and whoever the hell was a big man on that team and dropping 20 point games and swallowing up offensive rebounds all over the place against the heat despite having a limited offensive toolset. gave the heat quite a scare until lebron james took over and just went flatout beast mode, but it doesn't change the fact that bosh covers a wide range of problems of miami's holes in the frontcourt.

yes bosh might be a little overvalued but he's still a hot commodity among nba teams and therefore a justified 19th (or 20th - 22nd) rating. especially in the league that needs a small ball 4 - 5 that plays defense and spreads the floor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pzabby (Post 785439)
imagine if we had won the 03 draft


carter and lebron on the same team.....

greatest headband duo of all time?

LX 05-01-2013 04:21 PM

Regular season heat would likely win over 50 games without Lebron. The Cavs? No. Lebron has gotten better, and he's on a better team. Which means he gets to win the hardware now. Same goes for both Wade and Bosh. You don't mess with good teams, even when you have Lebron.

pzabby 05-01-2013 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX (Post 785459)
Regular season heat would likely win over 50 games without Lebron. The Cavs? No. Lebron has gotten better, and he's on a better team. Which means he gets to win the hardware now. Same goes for both Wade and Bosh. You don't mess with good teams, even when you have Lebron.

well said

'trane 05-01-2013 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjjs (Post 785444)
Who knows? Lebron is also significantly better now then he was with Cleveland.


The Heat were 5-1 without Lebron this year. Take it for what it's worth - which isn't really anything - except is the best measure of the Heat without Lebron.

Lebron being great doesn't make other players worse for playing with him. It's to easy to say that Bosh is as important as Haslem simply because Lebron is a god. By the same token we could see Duncan, Chris Paul, Gasol, Durant, all join the heat and be equally as useless simply because their talents aren't needed alongside the one true basketball phenom.

Youtube the pacers/heat or heat/oklahoma series last year. And honestly tell me that Bosh = Haslem.

It's a ridiculous notion that I've wasted far to many words on. Replace Bosh with a second Haslem - methinks this second title would be much harder to come by.

i never meant to support the idea that bosh is no better than haslem. just that, like you are pointing out, the talent of the surrounding team may not matter much when you have a transcendent star like lebron.

woodchuck 05-01-2013 06:51 PM

That 66 wins Cavs team was pretty deep, healthy and full of vets. -> a lot of wins. They were a bit like the Chicago Bulls from a few years ago. It's nice to have all that depth on back to backs vs. tired teams. Less useful in the playoffs.

This current Heat team is much more impressive. 37-2 to end the season?


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