X-Factor? - Page 2
Old 07-07-2008, 09:35 AM   #21 (permalink)
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What gives you the notion that Moon will improve significantly?

The sophmore slump isn't a joke. Ask Andrea.

And as for your explanation, I think you're overrating the hell out of Moon's talent. There's a reason this guy spent so many years outside the league. He's got everything but talent.

To me, Bargnani is the x-factor because there's such a range of what he could do, and it will significantly effect the outcome of the season. He could be anywhere from where he was last year to jeff and Major's predictions of around 15 and 6. The difference between those two extremes could have a serious impact on the win column.

Jose's handling of starters minutes over the course of the entire season will be crucial as well. I'm not particularly worried about it, but as has been discussed, the depth at the point is less than enjoyable, so Jose will obviously be a huge factor.
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Old 07-07-2008, 09:58 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Bargnani - I must have said the following about 50 times now: I said it before and I'll say it again, Bargani will have a break-out season. The pressure is off now for him.
Meh .... I'll shave my pubes and glue to my face if Bargnani averages 15 ppg next season.

I'm tired of people making excuses for this kid. Just face it, unless he learns how to use his size to his advantage and play the post, he'll continue to think he's a SG in a big dude's frame and jack up 3's all game long.
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Old 07-07-2008, 10:13 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Meh .... I'll shave my pubes and glue to my face if Bargnani averages 15 ppg next season.

I'm tired of people making excuses for this kid. Just face it, unless he learns how to use his size to his advantage and play the post, he'll continue to think he's a SG in a big dude's frame and jack up 3's all game long.
Bargnani's size (and subsequently, his post game) are only an advantage if he's being defended by a 3 or very small 4.

If he's being defended by 4's and 5's, he should play like a swingman.

It's all about matchups, and Andrea has the potential to create some enormous mismatches. The worst thing for him would be to pigeon hole his game into being a "post player" or an "outside shooter". The idea is that he should be able to do both when the situation calls for it.
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Old 07-07-2008, 01:34 PM   #24 (permalink)
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moon is not your average sophomore. He has a lot of experience compared to Bargnani. The problem with Moon is that all his life he had to spend most of his energy/time in finding work. I doubt he ever had a full summer to spend on improving his game. His skills are very raw, therefore there's huge room for improvement. And I think at this stage in his career, he's willing and able to put the effort when given a chance to do it. That's why I'm very hopeful about him.

As for the numbers I projected, the rebounding and blocks are pretty much the same as last year, so only the points increase is large. I think half of those points will come just through improved shooting (easiest area for him to improve, since he was really awful). The other half will come through natural skill improvement.
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Old 07-07-2008, 01:50 PM   #25 (permalink)
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The only way Moons numbers improve is if he goes to the hoop more often,getting to the line more in the process,which he can do against opponents second units.
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Old 07-07-2008, 01:53 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Meh .... I'll shave my pubes and glue to my face if Bargnani averages 15 ppg next season.

I'm tired of people making excuses for this kid. Just face it, unless he learns how to use his size to his advantage and play the post, he'll continue to think he's a SG in a big dude's frame and jack up 3's all game long.

I think he'll be right around 13-15PPG.It's his rebounding/confidence i'm worried about.He seems to easily lose his confidence, which unless that changes won't bode well for him long term in the NBA!You can't be easily shaken in this league.
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Old 07-07-2008, 01:57 PM   #27 (permalink)
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bargs=breakout seson
enough said
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Old 07-07-2008, 02:31 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Bargnani breaking out will depend on a few things:

a. Confidence
b. Trusting his skills
c. Being injury free

I still love his skill set, I still love what he could potentially be and there are somethings I've seen him do that I've never seen anyone else do. For me, if he can remain injury free, his confidence should be maintained at a high level. All we have to do is remember the early portion of October/November and the previous April before that and we can see what type of player he could become. I still think his appendectomy surgery had a big reason as to why his growth slowed down. If he is fully recovered then I honestly don't see why he won't actually be a very productive player.

Plus he does have pride going for him and people saying he's worst bust since kwame....it'll movitate him.
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Old 07-07-2008, 02:46 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Those two don't seem like a huge problem. I think his main issue is his confidence. He's too worried about the media and fans putting him down about being a bust and all. He's gotta find a way to forget about and boost that confidence right up. He's got to remember he was the #1 pick for a reason and he's gotta make it worth it. You can easily scratch b and c off that list.
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Old 07-07-2008, 03:03 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Nobody minds Bargnani shooting the trey when he's hitting it.

Ever notice that?

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Old 07-07-2008, 03:07 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Nobody minds Bargnani shooting the trey when he's hitting it.

Ever notice that?

Well thats kinda obvious SJ don't you think??

Of course no one would mind a player hitting a 3 pointer. Its when he shoots, and misses when it was an off-balance shot or he was contested greatly, thats when we mind it.
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Old 07-07-2008, 03:09 PM   #32 (permalink)
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ya, except when he hits them right?

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Old 07-07-2008, 03:12 PM   #33 (permalink)
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moon is not your average sophomore. He has a lot of experience compared to Bargnani. The problem with Moon is that all his life he had to spend most of his energy/time in finding work. I doubt he ever had a full summer to spend on improving his game. His skills are very raw, therefore there's huge room for improvement. And I think at this stage in his career, he's willing and able to put the effort when given a chance to do it. That's why I'm very hopeful about him.

As for the numbers I projected, the rebounding and blocks are pretty much the same as last year, so only the points increase is large. I think half of those points will come just through improved shooting (easiest area for him to improve, since he was really awful). The other half will come through natural skill improvement.
I totally disagree.

Moon has less potential to develop than your average sophmore, given that he is already 28 freakin years old. His skills are raw because in a lot of cases they're just not there. The guy has been a pro ball player for the last 6 or 7 years, why would you think all of a sudden he's going to develop a consistent outside jump shot or above average ball handling skills?

And as for spending most of his career looking for work...what do you think is the best way to find that work? Improving your skills.

Moon's skills are basically as good as they are going to get. It's like when you hear of 4 year seniors stock slipping in the draft because they don't have any more upside. Once a player reach a certain point in his career, the skills are what they are, and any improvement is going to come from mental improvements and a better understanding of the game.

Jamario's play was a nice surprise last year, but to expect him to develop the same way your average rookie would is very, very optimistic.
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Old 07-07-2008, 03:24 PM   #34 (permalink)
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ya, except when he hits them right?

Alright now your just screwin around in my head man

I like Bargs, I really do, so it's not like i'm against you or anything on this, but I still don't get what you mean??

You mean to say that no one minds when he hits the threes. Well of course no one minds!!! It's because he's hitting them and adding 3 points to the scoreboard!!!! Who would be mad about that!!??!!

Geez
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Old 07-07-2008, 04:07 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I'll put it this way.

If Bargnani, a few years down the road could be described like this:

Bargnani is one of the best shooters in the NBA, and is capable of shooting a high percentage from both medium range and beyond the three-point line, an exceptional skill for a 7-foot forward. His tall frame makes it difficult for defenders to guard and contest his jump shots. Bargnani utilizes a fadeaway jumper which is difficult to block, and he is outstanding at the free throw line (over 90% in 2008). Some critics note that, for a man of his size, he should be able to score more from the low post, although in recent years his inside game has improved. Il Mago also has perhaps the most effective high post game in the NBA today. He often receives a pass near the top of the key and brings the ball down to the low post to score on a turnaround jump shot or a drive. This element of his game has developed mostly in the past year.
Early in his career, Bargnani had a reputation for lackluster defense; one critic joked that Bargnani should be referred to as "Bustnani" because "he had no D. However, Bargnani's defense has improved under the tutelage of current Toronto coach Sam Mitchell. Recently, Bargnani notched a career high in blocks on January 6, 2008, with 7 against the Denver Nuggets. In comparison to his shooting ability and his improved defense, note that Bargnani is the only player in NBA history to register at least 150 three-point field goals and 100 blocks in a season (he had 151 three-point field goals and 101 blocks in the 2000-01 season).


Could you live with it, despite his slow start?

Think hard before you answer.
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Old 07-07-2008, 04:48 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I would question the accuracy of the article, seeing as Toronto played Cleveland, not Denver, on January 6, 2008

But seriously, I would hope no one would be upset about that description. Shit, I would've been excited about that description when we drafted him, let alone now.

And Major, what he means is, people talk all the time about Bargnani being too perimeter oriented and shooting too many threes. Yet, if he hits a contested fade away three that was, in essence, a bad shot, those same people whining about his shot selection will be quick to praise him for making the bucket.

That is, bad shot selection is bad shot selection whether the shot goes in or not and vice versa. Bargs shot selection, generally, is not bad. Yet, when he has a 3-10 (or something) night, people kill his shot selection.

Basically, most Raps fans would prefer to see Andrea hit a bunch of crazy shot and score 30 than see him struggle with open shots and only score 10. If youre looking at winning that specific game, then that's the right way to view it. If it's Bargnani's development in question, I'd rather see him miss good shots, because we know the talent to hit them is there.

From a development perspective, a good miss is better than a bad make. It's going to lead to more good makes rather than more bad misses.
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Old 07-07-2008, 06:08 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superjudge View Post
I'll put it this way.

If Bargnani, a few years down the road could be described like this:

Bargnani is one of the best shooters in the NBA, and is capable of shooting a high percentage from both medium range and beyond the three-point line, an exceptional skill for a 7-foot forward. His tall frame makes it difficult for defenders to guard and contest his jump shots. Bargnani utilizes a fadeaway jumper which is difficult to block, and he is outstanding at the free throw line (over 90% in 2008). Some critics note that, for a man of his size, he should be able to score more from the low post, although in recent years his inside game has improved. Il Mago also has perhaps the most effective high post game in the NBA today. He often receives a pass near the top of the key and brings the ball down to the low post to score on a turnaround jump shot or a drive. This element of his game has developed mostly in the past year.
Early in his career, Bargnani had a reputation for lackluster defense; one critic joked that Bargnani should be referred to as "Bustnani" because "he had no D. However, Bargnani's defense has improved under the tutelage of current Toronto coach Sam Mitchell. Recently, Bargnani notched a career high in blocks on January 6, 2008, with 7 against the Denver Nuggets. In comparison to his shooting ability and his improved defense, note that Bargnani is the only player in NBA history to register at least 150 three-point field goals and 100 blocks in a season (he had 151 three-point field goals and 101 blocks in the 2000-01 season).


Could you live with it, despite his slow start?

Think hard before you answer.
How could I possibly not live with that description?
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Old 07-07-2008, 06:12 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I would question the accuracy of the article, seeing as Toronto played Cleveland, not Denver, on January 6, 2008

But seriously, I would hope no one would be upset about that description. Shit, I would've been excited about that description when we drafted him, let alone now.

And Major, what he means is, people talk all the time about Bargnani being too perimeter oriented and shooting too many threes. Yet, if he hits a contested fade away three that was, in essence, a bad shot, those same people whining about his shot selection will be quick to praise him for making the bucket.

That is, bad shot selection is bad shot selection whether the shot goes in or not and vice versa. Bargs shot selection, generally, is not bad. Yet, when he has a 3-10 (or something) night, people kill his shot selection.

Basically, most Raps fans would prefer to see Andrea hit a bunch of crazy shot and score 30 than see him struggle with open shots and only score 10. If youre looking at winning that specific game, then that's the right way to view it. If it's Bargnani's development in question, I'd rather see him miss good shots, because we know the talent to hit them is there.

From a development perspective, a good miss is better than a bad make. It's going to lead to more good makes rather than more bad misses.
Tell me some more Mr. Basketball?
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Old 07-07-2008, 06:26 PM   #39 (permalink)
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four year seniors slip in the draft because their careers are more transparent than a freshmen who has a world of up-side, it has nothing to do with not having anything else to offer.

jamario has the coaches, trainers, and the opportunity to learn now as a NBA professional opposed to a budget-less minor league player. mix that with experience, and i honestly cannot understand how one could think that he won't improve this up-coming season.

with that said, i'm not talking as a 15 point scorer, i'm just talking as a player in general. people get cracked out when talking about ppg like we'd score 150 points based on individual expectations.
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Old 07-07-2008, 06:52 PM   #40 (permalink)
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four year seniors slip in the draft because their careers are more transparent than a freshmen who has a world of up-side, it has nothing to do with not having anything else to offer.
Fair enough, but those go hand in hand. Upside decreases as a player gets older and improves. A better player is closer to filling his potential, and assuming that most players improve from year to year in college, a freshman's upside is far greater, as he has more potential to realize. Hence, the older a player is, in general, the less upside they have to offer in terms of improvement.

Take Davon Jefferson for example. He didn't get drafted this year partly because he is a 21 (I think) year old freshman and many scouts felt that he was close to being fully developed.

That's why you hear older players in the draft constantly referred to as "what you see is what you get" kinds of players.

I'm talking skill and athletic development exclusively here, not mental development. And as such, is an NBA coach really going to improve Moon's skill set that much over one summer? For the past 8 years all Moon has heard is what he has to do to make it into the NBA. Now that he's there he's all of a sudden going to develop at light speed due to NBA coaching?
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