Wtf Tj? - Page 2
Old 03-05-2008, 07:51 AM   #21 (permalink)
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I don't like the shots, however I can understand if he felt hot at the time. My issue was with something I heard the other day on the radio, and it was something I thought I saw in the Pacer game. After a few bad shots, or turnovers, I am pretty sure TJ quit on the play.

He decided no tto get back on defence, or trotted back like he was very tired. He also chattered at his guys after one of his own miscues, deferring the blame to him.

I don't think TJ is inherantly selfish, or a Dick, but Ido think something is going on in that room. All I'm reading is how TJ killed the game last night, when to be honest, lay up, after open layup, after open Foyle dunk, is what killed it, TJ just put some icing on an already ugly Raptor cakewalk to another ugly loss.

I ain't seeing BC in the crowd lately either, where is he?
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Old 03-05-2008, 09:19 AM   #22 (permalink)
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I don't like the shots, however I can understand if he felt hot at the time. My issue was with something I heard the other day on the radio, and it was something I thought I saw in the Pacer game. After a few bad shots, or turnovers, I am pretty sure TJ quit on the play.

He decided no tto get back on defence, or trotted back like he was very tired. He also chattered at his guys after one of his own miscues, deferring the blame to him.

I don't think TJ is inherantly selfish, or a Dick, but Ido think something is going on in that room. All I'm reading is how TJ killed the game last night, when to be honest, lay up, after open layup, after open Foyle dunk, is what killed it, TJ just put some icing on an already ugly Raptor cakewalk to another ugly loss.

I ain't seeing BC in the crowd lately either, where is he?

Not true, we where doing a decent game. Nothing really special but we were good on defense. Only thing was our shots wereng going in. He provoked those turnovers, where it was imposible for us to settle our defense and provoked those easy threes that put as from 3 to 12 down in 2 minutes.
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Old 03-05-2008, 10:22 AM   #23 (permalink)
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TJ for Jamal Crawford?
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Old 03-05-2008, 10:24 AM   #24 (permalink)
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after last night's game... i dont see how we dont trade his ass in the offseason.
he brings nothing to this team above what jose does.

and anyone notice how much worse a team we've been since he came back?
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Old 03-05-2008, 10:29 AM   #25 (permalink)
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We suck lately because we simply suck lately, not because of TJ. From that point of view its also Primozs fault too. Now what happend last night was his fault. Maybe we had lost but not by 15. It would have being a close game for sure.
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Old 03-05-2008, 10:31 AM   #26 (permalink)
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after last night's game... i dont see how we dont trade his ass in the offseason.
he brings nothing to this team above what jose does.

and anyone notice how much worse a team we've been since he came back?

Your right on insider.This so called strength having 2 elite point guards is really starting to hurt us. The 2 differant styles of play is hurting our play instead of the opposition. I think we should start tonight and give TJ dixon type minutes and lets see how we make out. Our team will play more like a team with Jose getting more minutes.
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Old 03-05-2008, 10:43 AM   #27 (permalink)
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after last night's game... i dont see how we dont trade his ass in the offseason.
he brings nothing to this team above what jose does.
Believe me I'm sure BC would love to do such a thing but like I already alluded too, a bad contract and a history of serious injuries makes it merely impossible to deal elsewhere.

Start getting used to it guys because Ford ain't going anywhere anytime soon.
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Old 03-05-2008, 10:43 AM   #28 (permalink)
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after last night's game... i dont see how we dont trade his ass in the offseason.
he brings nothing to this team above what jose does.

and anyone notice how much worse a team we've been since he came back?

Sure judge after the bad game and not the good games that preceeded it. That's not biased at all.

Anyone notice how Bosh has been out for the last three games we've lost since Tj's been back?
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Old 03-05-2008, 11:23 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Sure judge after the bad game and not the good games that preceeded it. That's not biased at all.

Anyone notice how Bosh has been out for the last three games we've lost since Tj's been back?
to me, even when TJ plays good, it seems like the team suffers.
its funny that when jose plays good, we seem to win those games... you cant say the same about ford.

playing bad is one thing.
but playing like he did last night, is another.

i dont give a shit if TJ has a bad game, 4 points, an assist, a couple turnovers... blah, it happens.

but when the guy spends a good 6 minutes jacking up every shot in sight, not passing once on 5 straight possessions, driving in and out out of control and turning over the ball over and over in this same span... then theres a problem.

if you can honestly defend TJ for his little show that he put on in the 3rd quarter, then you need to get a job as a defense lawyer and make millions of dollars.

if you can honestly say theres no problem here, then you're in a dream world man.
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Old 03-05-2008, 11:26 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Sure judge after the bad game and not the good games that preceeded it. That's not biased at all.

Anyone notice how Bosh has been out for the last three games we've lost since Tj's been back?
I think he has had decent games, not good games. Second, I dont want him traded, but Tj should be ASHAMED of what he did, he better get he thing together for the next games, cause if not I will be the first one saying that his ass should be traded,
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Old 03-05-2008, 11:27 AM   #31 (permalink)
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You're doing a lot of 'seeming' here but ignoring some very clear facts. Our record when TJ was out was 5 games over 500. So to answer your seeming about when Jose starts...we won 5 more games than we lost...5! Last year with TJ starting we were 12 games over 500...and when he returned here before Bosh went down we went from 5 games over to 8 games over. That should take care of the 'seeming' you had to do. Bottom line is Tj has shown he can help the team win...last night he tried to do way too much and it cost us(although we were already losing the game..it's not like anyone else played that well).

Read my posts today..i'm not defending what he did last night. I'm not happy with that.. but i dont' throw him to the curb and forget about all the games he's helped us win over the past 2 years either like Jose fans are so quick to do with him.

To win we need both pg's playing their games at their top level. Jose getting 3 assists and TJ jacking 13 shots in 16 minutes isn't going to get it done.

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to me, even when TJ plays good, it seems like the team suffers.
its funny that when jose plays good, we seem to win those games... you cant say the same about ford.

playing bad is one thing.
but playing like he did last night, is another.

i dont give a shit if TJ has a bad game, 4 points, an assist, a couple turnovers... blah, it happens.

but when the guy spends a good 6 minutes jacking up every shot in sight, not passing once on 5 straight possessions, driving in and out out of control and turning over the ball over and over in this same span... then theres a problem.

if you can honestly defend TJ for his little show that he put on in the 3rd quarter, then you need to get a job as a defense lawyer and make millions of dollars.

if you can honestly say theres no problem here, then you're in a dream world man.
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Old 03-05-2008, 12:03 PM   #32 (permalink)
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You're doing a lot of 'seeming' here but ignoring some very clear facts
i'm not too sure where you're getting your info from swan.
but heres what i dug up...

games without TJ = 19-12
games with TJ starting = 7-7
games with TJ playing off the bench = 6-8

do the math.
without TJ we're 19-12, which is 7 games over .500
games when TJ plays (starting and off the bench) we're 13-15

we have a winning record when he doesnt play. we have a losing record when he does play.
i dont know what else to say here, its so black and white.
the numbers dont lie.
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Old 03-05-2008, 12:20 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Alright i forgot about those 4 games he came back and then sat 2. 7 games over is better than 5 but it's still not 'seem to win when Jose plays good'. Jose has played good in a lot of games if you look at stats and assists to turnovers etc... but that doesn't necessarily mean we win which has been my point all along... he's a great point guard but not ideal for the system and players we have today on this roster.

Tj was healthy most of last year and when you take into accoutn all the time Bosh missed and all the new players he had to get to gel, 12 games over 500 was amazing! This year he's had a rough time... Bosh and Parker sucked in his games early in the year and then he's had to get back to top shape since coming back..and now Bosh is out again for the last 3.

Making Jose into some god that will lead us to a championship is pure bias considering he's not really shown the ability to lead us to wins over crappy teams with any consistancy. At least last year we beat all the teams we were supposed to and only lost to good ones. This year it's a crap shoot and we have more talent!

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Originally Posted by INSIDER View Post
i'm not too sure where you're getting your info from swan.
but heres what i dug up...

games without TJ = 19-12
games with TJ starting = 7-7
games with TJ playing off the bench = 6-8

do the math.
without TJ we're 19-12, which is 7 games over .500
games when TJ plays (starting and off the bench) we're 13-15

we have a winning record when he doesnt play. we have a losing record when he does play.
i dont know what else to say here, its so black and white.
the numbers dont lie.
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Old 03-05-2008, 12:29 PM   #34 (permalink)
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in my opinion this whole TJ and Jose experiment is killing the team.
it will NOT work.

TJ ran the team differently, he would take over in spurts and be more of a offensive PG. this was the teams identity, and we accepted this and were successful (last season).
TJ then gets injured, and sits out 2 months....

Jose comes along and runs the team almost completely opposite; he settles the team down, he passes, he controls the tempo and gets others involved offensively.
it starts off slow, but then starts working. the raps develop and create a new identity.
just when things start rolling for Jose and the team gets comfortable in this game type and routine, ford comes back.
the team loses the identity it created for itself over the last 2 months...

we're a two headed monster.
we have 2 identity's.
one head must be cut off.
it will not work.
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Old 03-05-2008, 12:34 PM   #35 (permalink)
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in my opinion this whole TJ and Jose experiment is killing the team.
it will NOT work.

TJ ran the team differently, he would take over in spurts and be more of a offensive PG. this was the teams identity, and we accepted this and were successful (last season).
TJ then gets injured, and sits out 2 months....

Jose comes along and runs the team almost completely opposite; he settles the team down, he passes, he controls the tempo and gets others involved offensively.
it starts off slow, but then starts working. the raps develop and create a new identity.
just when things start rolling for Jose and the team gets comfortable in this game type and routine, ford comes back.
the team loses the identity it created for itself over the last 2 months...

we're a two headed monster.
we have 2 identity's.
one head must be cut off.
it will not work.
Well I can't agree that TJ came back and the team lost it's idenity. I will say that we starting winning games because our schedule got really soft and TJ returned and we kept winning until Bosh went down...that much is pretty substantiated.

The team has issues that go beyond our point guard situation. Getting rid of Ford and making Jose the main guy and getting him a decent backup won't make us an elite team...we'll still be mired in the middle of the eastern conference if we dont' get tougher and have someone other than Chris Bosh step up consistantly and give us points, boards and defense. Tj is not killing this team's identity...we're still soft and inconsistant.
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Old 03-05-2008, 01:45 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by INSIDER View Post
i'm not too sure where you're getting your info from swan.
but heres what i dug up...

games without TJ = 19-12
games with TJ starting = 7-7
games with TJ playing off the bench = 6-8

do the math.
without TJ we're 19-12, which is 7 games over .500
games when TJ plays (starting and off the bench) we're 13-15

we have a winning record when he doesnt play. we have a losing record when he does play.
i dont know what else to say here, its so black and white.
the numbers dont lie.
In addition to that, the games without TJ included that ridiculous December stretch. Going 19-12 without him is actually pretty impressive.

I think it's impossible to deny that we've looked worse since he's came back. It's not just Bosh being out, we looked like crap the games before Indy too.

I think TJ's helped us in the past and helped us last year when we won 47, but I believe in character players and teammates, and I don't want 16 mil of our capspace locked up in a dual PG situation with one selfish player. I'm all for trading him this summer or at next deadline, depending on how Ukic works out. Get er done, BC.
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Old 03-05-2008, 01:49 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Well I can't agree that TJ came back and the team lost it's idenity. I will say that we starting winning games because our schedule got really soft and TJ returned and we kept winning until Bosh went down...that much is pretty substantiated.

The team has issues that go beyond our point guard situation. Getting rid of Ford and making Jose the main guy and getting him a decent backup won't make us an elite team...we'll still be mired in the middle of the eastern conference if we dont' get tougher and have someone other than Chris Bosh step up consistantly and give us points, boards and defense. Tj is not killing this team's identity...we're still soft and inconsistant.
Well, we do have quite a few years to work something out. We have a big expiring contract next year, a #1 pick who might be good but is currently a project, a mid-level pick this year, and a GM who has proven he's worthy. I'm not fretting about the Raptors being able to improve over the next 10 years. We have our PG and our big man, we don't have our coach or a great rebounder or a great wing player, but we have time to get at least 2 of those things.
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Old 03-05-2008, 01:57 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Well if we can't get squat for Ford what would it cost to buy him out ? Also if the 8 mil is scaring teams away could BC still pick up lets say a part of Fords salary to swing a deal ?
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Old 03-05-2008, 02:01 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I'm sure if we traded TJ AND Rasho to someone, they'd take it. Really if they gave us someone of TJ's contract back in that deal, we'd still be dumping 8 million, and they still get the expiring.

Plus, TJ still has some value I'd think. Pretty much no-one will remember this game but us by the end of the year, there's a lot of teams in seach of PGs out there, he's still a skilled player... he can be taken. The Knicks almost traded Randolph to the Nuggets or Bucks this summer, and he's a MUCH bigger cancer and a MUCH bigger capkiller. And hell, Portland was able to trade him last year, and NY will probably get rid of him this summer.
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Old 03-05-2008, 02:47 PM   #40 (permalink)
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ford for randolph?
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