Would you support a full rebuild? - Page 2

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View Poll Results: Full rebuild?
Yes 30 62.50%
No 18 37.50%
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Old 12-14-2012, 01:02 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I enjoyed the last game against Brooklyn, moreso when Aaron Gray wasn't on the court.
it was the most enjoyable game of the season for me.

in the NBA you need to acquire top-shelf talent to win, it's the only way. There's no 8th seed Los Angeles Kings-esque team in the NBA that's going to surprise its way to a championship, it just doesn't happen here.

if you're going to rebuild in the NBA you need to do it right, which includes trading away the andreas and the joses and sucking the big one to a) give yourself a chance to acquire a high-talent pick and b) give your young guys a chance to develop. not only that but when you give your young guys extended minutes it gives you a chance to evaluate them. man i would argue that in his third year the Raptors still don't really know what they have in Ed Davis, because he's been stuck on the bench. that's a problem.

you can't afford to be mediocre in this league because it puts you in a limbo that's really, really hard to get out of unless you luck out in the lottery like Chicago did (if you consider that legit).
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Old 12-14-2012, 01:44 PM   #22 (permalink)
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The thing that fucks up a full re-build is us having no 1st round pick. That's huge in any re-build. We have to wait to see how things unforld in the summer. If we retain our pick etc.
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Old 12-14-2012, 01:54 PM   #23 (permalink)
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The thing that fucks up a full re-build is us having no 1st round pick. That's huge in any re-build. We have to wait to see how things unforld in the summer. If we retain our pick etc.

We can aquire a first rounder. And if we're dealing player away in the next couple months I garantee a pick or two will come our way.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:01 PM   #24 (permalink)
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it's not so much about a new rebuilding program, obviously colangelo badly misjudged how advanced we are in the process. Let's face it, most rebuilding programs take 4-7 years, unless you get lucky with a superstar. There's just no way you cab rebuild in 3years, especially when you draft 13, 8 and 5 and all three drafts are below par.We got some potentially good pieces, future starters in each of the last 4 drafts, but we have nothing close to a star in the bunch.

It will take 2-3 years to get rid of the all the bad contracts (bargnani, calderon, kleiza, amir, fields), that should be just enough time to accumulate talent and, hopefully, strike lucky in the lottery at some point.

Trying to speed up the process in the nba is almost always a losing proposition, I'm amazed that so many teams still try to do it honestly. The evidence is overwhelming that patience wins the game.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:05 PM   #25 (permalink)
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The other thing about rebuilding is that it doesn't have to be painful. Ultimately, fans are happy/unhappy mostly by comparing performance to expectations. We'd be happy with LA's record now, but none of their fans is with their.

Hopefully, this year will be the low point, and as long as each of the future years show some progress, I bet the fan base would be moderately satisfied with that and with the improvement in the core players.

We just need a GM hired long term with a clear objective - get the team to the playoffs in the 4th year and the only limitations for him should be spending on players - other than that, he should be given completely free rein to trade/draft and hire/fire anybody they want.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:06 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I think with MLSE they're in a poor position simply because, if they fire someone they'll be seen as meddling and if they don't they'll be seen as being laissez faire with their teams.

How many coaches have been fired by TFC? Everyone wanted Burke and they brought him in. How many Raptors coaches have been fired?

They're not dumb, they understand winning creates money and brand prestige (which is critical). Sometimes finding the right people is more difficult than it seems.
I think they do have performance accountability. Why did they fire Babcock and then JFJ and hired 2 experienced, top of the line (at the time) GMs? It did not work out as anticipated by them in either case, but they did bring a couple of great execs and they paid them a ton of money.

Last edited by ERaz; 12-14-2012 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:09 PM   #27 (permalink)
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We can aquire a first rounder. And if we're dealing player away in the next couple months I garantee a pick or two will come our way.
We can still try to acquire first round picks for guys like Bargnani and DeRozan, but they're not going to be in the top 2-4 range. I don't even know if we retain our own pick this year. If we lose the pick, we should definitely do a full re-build and make a run at Wiggins. The odds of us retaining our own pick get worse as the years go by. I don't want to be in a position where we tank and lose all of our pieces, only to see us lose the 3rd or 2nd overall pick of the draft on top of that.
With that said, I would still trade pieces of the puzzle that don't fit. Bargnani should be traded if the right deal comes along. Calderon must go, take a contract and a pick back if we have to (What the Bobcats did). Dump LK, Fields, Gray. Trade Amir for Chandler. Start building up trade value in guys like DeRozan. The Cavs could have easily traded Varajeo a couple of years ago for nothing, now they can get a good return for him. We may have to build up Bargnani's value if we're not getting any good offers. I would want at least a prospect. Something like Drummond and Maggette for him.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:11 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I wouldn't mind it either way, I think I would actually prefer a full rebuild though because right now were headed to mediocrity at best. That being said, it absolutely cannot be done with a coach like Casey, who doesn't develop players and never trusts his rookies. If we do a proper rebuild we need someone who's going to play our rookies a lot so they can develop.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:16 PM   #29 (permalink)
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The problem is that we didn't tank properly. Bosh left, we drafted Davis which was good. We tanked the next year and finished 3rd worst and got Valanciunas, which was a good pick up. However, last year when at least 10 teams we're tanking, we should have went all out. Don't pick up 10 day contracts on players to win more games. We should have traded guys like Calderon away. Calderon should have netted us a first round pick given the Cavs got one for Sessions. What if we lost a few more games? We could have easily had Lillard or quite possibly won the draft by finishing 4th worst. Why didn't we offer Calderon for Ben Gordon and a first? That was a missed opportunity and a great pick up for Charlotte. We would have had at least a Lillard if we tanked properly, plus another potentially high draft pick from Detroit. If we went in that direction, it would be a clear sign of a re-build and we would have likely traded Bargnani if the return meant a high lottery pick.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:20 PM   #30 (permalink)
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The Nets were tanking, but they made the stupid mistake of trading their pick for Gerald Wallace. If they kept their pick at 6, I'm fairly confident that Dwight Howard would have been a Net today. It's really not worth it giving away picks when you're teams like Toronto.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:23 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I'm confused, haven't we been in full rebuild for 4 years now? lol
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:26 PM   #32 (permalink)
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No one would have predicted this record right now, and luckily BC put a little protection on that pick instead of making it unprotected which Isiah Thomas was stupid enough to do. If we drafted Drummond, I wouldn't have sent him for Lowry. But because it was Ross, I would have traded him for Lowry. We should have added some more protection to that pick. If it's true they were willing to take Ross instead, we should have definitely added more protection to that pick. At least top 7 protected in year 1.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:27 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I'm confused, haven't we been in full rebuild for 4 years now? lol
Casey and BC like to call it "building" and not "re-build." Which means finish with the 8th worst record instead of the bottom 3.

Last edited by Raptors1995; 12-14-2012 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:41 PM   #34 (permalink)
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This franchise, as a non destination, has to employ the full rebuild (not this accelerated, feeble rebuild in an attempt to play first round fodder) in order to build a contender.

If you're not in the penthouse, gentlemen, you gotta be in the basement. Join me, it's not so dank down here. In fact, down here, there's a glimmer of hope. A few floors above all you get is access to the treadmill.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:43 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I'm assuming full rebuild means we keep Ed, Jonas and Ross. And yes.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:45 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Raptors1995 View Post
The problem is that we didn't tank properly. Bosh left, we drafted Davis which was good. We tanked the next year and finished 3rd worst and got Valanciunas, which was a good pick up. However, last year when at least 10 teams we're tanking, we should have went all out. Don't pick up 10 day contracts on players to win more games. We should have traded guys like Calderon away. Calderon should have netted us a first round pick given the Cavs got one for Sessions. What if we lost a few more games? We could have easily had Lillard or quite possibly won the draft by finishing 4th worst. Why didn't we offer Calderon for Ben Gordon and a first? That was a missed opportunity and a great pick up for Charlotte. We would have had at least a Lillard if we tanked properly, plus another potentially high draft pick from Detroit. If we went in that direction, it would be a clear sign of a re-build and we would have likely traded Bargnani if the return meant a high lottery pick.
Can't argue with any of this.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:48 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Why? Why do we blame organization? From everything we've read they've essentially given the basketball administrators free reign to run this organization (or the basketball operations). Unless MLSE has a culture of no accountability in terms of performance, which may be true.
Serious question that I have no idea how to answer...What team that has made an NBA finals and didn't spend over the cap? Say last 10 years. That's why. And Peddie... that's why.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:50 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I'm confused, haven't we been in full rebuild for 4 years now? lol
We should have been but instead we were stuck in the worst possible situation.

you either want to be good or really bad. Raptors were just bad, which gets you the #8-#11 draft pick year in and year out.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:52 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Raptors1995 View Post
The problem is that we didn't tank properly. Bosh left, we drafted Davis which was good. We tanked the next year and finished 3rd worst and got Valanciunas, which was a good pick up. However, last year when at least 10 teams we're tanking, we should have went all out. Don't pick up 10 day contracts on players to win more games. We should have traded guys like Calderon away. Calderon should have netted us a first round pick given the Cavs got one for Sessions. What if we lost a few more games? We could have easily had Lillard or quite possibly won the draft by finishing 4th worst. Why didn't we offer Calderon for Ben Gordon and a first? That was a missed opportunity and a great pick up for Charlotte. We would have had at least a Lillard if we tanked properly, plus another potentially high draft pick from Detroit. If we went in that direction, it would be a clear sign of a re-build and we would have likely traded Bargnani if the return meant a high lottery pick.
Yep. It shouldn't have come down to the last game last year, but if we out tank the Nets in that final contest, we get a good chance at Lillard, and probably keep our 2013 pick in the process.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:58 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Yep. It shouldn't have come down to the last game last year, but if we out tank the Nets in that final contest, we get a good chance at Lillard, and probably keep our 2013 pick in the process.
A chance at Lillard or Barnes... instead we didn't tank... I agree, it's gross. It's depressing though I'm not depressed, that would probably be taken wrong.
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