Wolstat: Raptors' Recent Play Has Been 'Huge Encouragement' To Ujiri But... - Page 7

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Old 01-04-2014, 10:04 PM   #121 (permalink)
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I was being rude, so I took it out.
Which is exactly why I asked and so the record of it wouldn't disappear.

Also, why didn't you include the fact that Lebron, Kobe,Garnett, Shaq and Billups didn't win their titles for the teams that drafted them. How many titles were those? There are more ways to add players to your team than just the draft. However, your single-minded obsession doesn't allow for the fluid construction of a team. The original post was at least as valid as your reply to it. Your approach to team building is so rigid, so obsessive that you're just inviting the critical comments you're getting in the replies to your posts. Good job.
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:05 PM   #122 (permalink)
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People who consistently attack people on the board typically do so because their arguments are weak and they are unwilling to look at other sides of the argument. Just an FYI because you seem to be having trouble with having a good argument because you are just pissing people off when you attack them.

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There is no argument to be made for Lowry in the top 5 except one by a homer. CP3, Curry, Lillard, Bledsoe, Tony Parker, and Lawson have all been undoubtably better than him this season. That's even if you don't count all the injured players who are better than him. Lowry is top 10 on a good day.
Secondly, I do not believe some of the listed player above have been "undoubtedly" better then Kyle. As a matter of fact, if you look at their numbers, some are pretty close, Kyle shoots a better percentage then some and Kyle is one of the top defensive point guard in the league (if that means anything to your metrics, because it should). I am not saying that Lowry is a dynamic scorer like Curry, or a unreal player maker like Paul, I am saying overall he is playing like a top PG in the league. But whatever, you call me a homer and your argument is over right?

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I already answered what you said about Chicago:



Yeah, I will overlook Denver's success because I know that you don't need a star to win in the regular season, but once you get to that point of success what really matters is the playoffs and they are stuck in a position where they will not break up their team because it's too good but they also won't make it to past the 2nd round, if that far. Memphis is a curious case, and while they made it far, they still lost to a team that had everything they had and some elite players.

Still, my point stands that over the last 30 years there have been at most 2 teams without a top 10 player on their roster to win a championship, that should be our ultimate goal for this team, should it not? Therefore, my suggestion is that we find this elite player, and continue the process of building around that player in order to become a contender. I just don't see where we will find that player anywhere other than the draft.
I believe in this case you are basically seeing what you want to see. Ignoring that the league is becoming more team oriented than superstar oriented. Even Miami had to find a team that had good chemistry and work well together. Get off your tank, stop saying you're looking to the future while the rest of us are imbeciles, and realize that you are able to effect the organization just as much as the rest of us, in no possible way.

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Old 01-04-2014, 10:06 PM   #123 (permalink)
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What do you think Lowry can actually get? Losing your best players for nothing isn't bad planning...it's the end of a contract.

It's Raptor fan paranoia - all our players really want to leave us so we better trade them before they do.

Every team has expiring contracts, and only a small percentage is traded the year before.
I think lowry's value is increasing by the day. I think he is worth more than a tpe and a 2nd rounder, that's for sure. Torap is right, there is no immediate rush. And this isn't about a top 10 pick.

To your last point: Only a small percentage are the best player on an overachieving team with a new gm in a tough cap situation with few assets, and no real long-term plan. When you are in that position and you have a guy that might stay, but you would have to battle against any other team that might throw huge money at him, you can't just wait and hope the chips all fall in the right place. Unless you can get him to commit, one playoff appearance is not worth losing him for nothing and starting a rebuild next year.

Edit - I see you edited your post so I will address that too:
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He will only gets traded if;

A: We get a high probability of netting a high draft pick;
and/or
B: Ujiri senses that Lowry wants to play elsewhere.

I don't think A will happen and I don't think B is true.
as to B - it's not necessarily that he wants to play elsewhere (although that is always possible) it is that I think it would be a mistake to pay him huge money over the long haul because he's proven to be streaky and injury prone. If someone offers him $12 mil over 4 years, i think we would be fools to match that.

Last edited by 'trane; 01-04-2014 at 10:11 PM.
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:07 PM   #124 (permalink)
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They are comparable as expiring assets. Losing your best players for nothing is bad planning, almost every time.

An example....if you were offered a 1st round pick from Indy and nothing else would you take it? Maybe you should think back to what we got in a S+T for Bosh. It could very well be that the offers are similar now as to what they will be then.

And Lowry and Bosh are not the same for a couple reasons. And who says we get nothing? (Like I said, Bosh should have gone in the summer and he would have brought more than ST and at the deadline). The difference with Bosh was he was ALWAYS leaving to go to Miami no matter then offer. Lowry doesnt seem to have any agenda, is not a max player and can be resigned by the best bid and we can use bird rights on him I beleive since the should have transferred from Houston.

I'm not saying don't trade him but I wouldnt trade him for a shitty pick or a bad contract or a average player than you can sign with a MLE.

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Old 01-04-2014, 10:13 PM   #125 (permalink)
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An example....if you were offered a 1st round pick from Indy and nothing else would you take it? Maybe you should think back to what we got in a S+T for Bosh. It could very well be that the offers are similar now as to what they will be then.

And Lowry and Bosh are not the same for a couple reasons. And who says we get nothing? (Like I said, Bosh should have gone in the summer and he would have brought more than ST and at the deadline). The difference with Bosh was he was ALWAYS leaving to go to Miami no matter then offer. Lowry doesnt seem to have any agenda, is not a max player and can be resigned by the best bid and we can use bird rights on him I beleive since the should have transferred from Houston.

I'm not saying don't trade him but I wouldnt trade him for a shitty pick or a bad contract or a average player than you can sign with a MLE.
I'd take a first from Indy if they somehow took fields too.
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:28 PM   #126 (permalink)
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it's not necessarily that he wants to play elsewhere (although that is always possible) it is that I think it would be a mistake to pay him huge money over the long haul because he's proven to be streaky and injury prone. If someone offers him $12 mil over 4 years, i think we would be fools to match that.
I'm guessing that you mean $48M over 4 years... because I think we'd all sign Kyle at $3M/season in a heartbeat!
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:29 PM   #127 (permalink)
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I'd take a first from Indy if they somehow took fields too.
I wouldn't today. I might in 5 weeks depending on what happens.

And 12 over 4 is dead simple to swallow and its easy to unload if you have to. Again maybe in 5 weeks i change my mind but not based on this year so far. Not paying 12 for 4 would be a bad decision.

we can use his bird rights this year, Amirs next year, Fields, hayes and I think Novak all expire next year so become trade assets. Rome wasnt built in a day and that allows us to spend into the tax for another player. and we have an extra pick.

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Old 01-04-2014, 10:30 PM   #128 (permalink)
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I'm guessing that you mean $48M over 4 years... because I think we'd all sign Kyle at $3M/season in a heartbeat!
Haha. Ya. $12 mil per over 4 years.
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:35 PM   #129 (permalink)
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I really like Kyle Lowry but i wouldn't give him much more then 8mil/yr
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:36 PM   #130 (permalink)
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I'm guessing that you mean $48M over 4 years... because I think we'd all sign Kyle at $3M/season in a heartbeat!
Yeah, he already makes over 6 mil a year. Resigning him would realistically cost us 7.5 million upwards depending if he continues to play this well.

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I wouldn't today. I might in 5 weeks depending on what happens.

And 12 over 4 is dead simple to swallow and its easy to unload if you have to. Again maybe in 5 weeks i change my mind but not based on this year so far. Not paying 12 for 4 would be a bad decision.

I agree with that. Lowry is much more valuable than a 1st round draft pick that is not in at least the top 7. Though if we are planning on become a serious threat in the league it would be smart to keep him, and bring in more vets as we still are a fairly young inexperienced team. Sure he might leave, but so might Jonas, Demar, basically any player. It's up to the Raptors organization to give him a reason to want to stay, and find out where his head is at before it is too late.
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:37 PM   #131 (permalink)
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Which is exactly why I asked and so the record of it wouldn't disappear.

Also, why didn't you include the fact that Lebron, Kobe,Garnett, Shaq and Billups didn't win their titles for the teams that drafted them. How many titles were those? There are more ways to add players to your team than just the draft. However, your single-minded obsession doesn't allow for the fluid construction of a team. The original post was at least as valid as your reply to it. Your approach to team building is so rigid, so obsessive that you're just inviting the critical comments you're getting in the replies to your posts. Good job.
Because in today's NBA it is much easier to keep your drafted players than it previously was. With restricted free agency, max contracts, limitations on sign-and trades, you're pretty much guaranteed to at least 7 years of a drafted player. If Masai can't build around a player after 7 years, he damn sure won't be able to make moves to acquire franchise-player level talent any other way.
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:44 PM   #132 (permalink)
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I also have to question the fanbase:

If Andrew Wiggins wasn't Canadian, would so many people be pro- tanking? It's obvious that is really the player everyone wants. No one really wants to settle with Parker, but he is still good. Kind of like settling for Melo in the Lebron draft.
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:49 PM   #133 (permalink)
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Because in today's NBA it is much easier to keep your drafted players than it previously was. With restricted free agency, max contracts, limitations on sign-and trades, you're pretty much guaranteed to at least 7 years of a drafted player. If Masai can't build around a player after 7 years, he damn sure won't be able to make moves to acquire franchise-player level talent any other way.
If a player doesn't want to be in a situation, there are ways they can force a move. It's not as rigid as you think.
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:50 PM   #134 (permalink)
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I also have to question the fanbase:

If Andrew Wiggins wasn't Canadian, would so many people be pro- tanking? It's obvious that is really the player everyone wants. No one really wants to settle with Parker, but he is still good. Kind of like settling for Melo in the Lebron draft.
TBH I'm kind of glad that we probably won't have to worry about drafting Wiggins... because I'd be afraid of us passing on a more talented prospect just to take the "local kid". Then again... I think Masai would be smarter than that. Bc probably wouldn't lol.
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:51 PM   #135 (permalink)
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BC would draft a random italian first overall over Wiggins...
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:57 PM   #136 (permalink)
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I really like Kyle Lowry but i wouldn't give him much more then 8mil/yr
Which Kyle? Last years ok. This years... more. I know this is way early and it might be a 13 game thing but thats why i wait a bit longer to trade him or to decide.

Btw Wiggins has sunk to 3rd on draft.net. Parker from Simeon is the one.

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Old 01-04-2014, 10:58 PM   #137 (permalink)
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I also have to question the fanbase:

If Andrew Wiggins wasn't Canadian, would so many people be pro- tanking? It's obvious that is really the player everyone wants. No one really wants to settle with Parker, but he is still good. Kind of like settling for Melo in the Lebron draft.
I think the big reason for many people wanting (or wanted) to tank is because if how deep this class is in terms of star potential. Wiggins would be nice, but most people realize we likely won't get him but still see guys like Parker who might actually be better than Wiggins, Embiid, Exum, Smart, etc. who all project to be better than any of the players we currently have on the roster.

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Old 01-04-2014, 11:01 PM   #138 (permalink)
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I think the big reason for many people wanting to tank is because if how deep this class is in terms of star potential. Wiggins would be nice, but most people realize we likely won't get him but still see guys like Parker who might actually be better than Wiggins, Embiid, Exum, Smart, etc. who all project to be better than any of the players we currently have on the roster.
I agree it is very deep. I would rather have a good roster, not tank, and draft a nice piece to add to the puzzle, opposed to tanking, missing out on a top 3 pick, and just adding another role player. IMO Wiggins, Randle, and Parker have star talents, the rest will all be good players and help teams out significantly, I would also be very afraid to draft embid early lol.
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Old 01-04-2014, 11:04 PM   #139 (permalink)
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I agree it is very deep. I would rather have a good roster, not tank, and draft a nice piece to add to the puzzle, opposed to tanking, missing out on a top 3 pick, and just adding another role player. IMO Wiggins, Randle, and Parker have star talents, the rest will all be good players and help teams out significantly, I would also be very afraid to draft embid early lol.
Personally, I think Exum is going to be a very very good player and though I would hesitate to take Embiid top 3, his potential is through the roof. The team with the 4th pick this year is going to be stressed out
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Old 01-04-2014, 11:08 PM   #140 (permalink)
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Personally, I think Exum is going to be a very very good player and though I would hesitate to take Embiid top 3, his potential is through the roof. The team with the 4th pick this year is going to be stressed out
Good to see you have kooled off from earlier in the thread. lol, I thought we lost you.

4th pick will be tough, but I think Smart, Exum and Robinson the 3rd will all help any team and be a solid pick ( I would take Smart though) haha
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