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Old 01-04-2014, 04:02 PM   #61 (permalink)
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So what's your argument then Kool-Aid? Break it down for everyone once and for all so we can all get it right.... because this is what I'm hearing...

"Let's deal Lowry NOW (ignoring the fact that the trade deadline is more than a month away and no great deals are on the table). Let's look to deal Demar too. Let's try to uno all the growth that this team has seen over the past few weeks then let's pray that we're bad enough to land a top 5 pick.... And then let's pray that that top 5 pick turns into a franchise player.

And then let's repeat the whole process for the next 2 seasons until we have 3 or 4 all-stars in our starting 5.

That about cover it? Because that's what I'm hearing.... and frankly, it sounds ludicrous.
But the alternative to that is what? Let's ignore the future, Let's pray that this team doesn't flop and miss the playoffs, let's pray we get a good matchup in the playoffs, let's pray we actually win the series, let's pray none of the low seeds get their shit together and end up matched up with us, let's pray that JV becomes a top 10 player, let's pray that Lowry signs for a tiny contract, let's pray that we draft a star with the 18th pick, let's pray that we will be the next Detroit, let's pray that Masai hoses another team to get a star, lets pray that a team trades something good for Lowry.

I understand that tanking is not risk-free, you don't seem to understand that going on with the season isn't either.

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Old 01-04-2014, 04:06 PM   #62 (permalink)
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But the alternative to that is what? Let's ignore the future, Let's pray that this team doesn't flop and miss the playoffs, let's pray we get a good matchup in the playoffs, let's pray we actually win the series, let's pray none of the low seeds get their shit together and end up matched up with us, let's pray that JV becomes a top 10 player, let's pray that Lowry signs for a tiny contract, let's pray that we draft a star with the 18th pick, let's pray that we will be the next Detroit, let's pray that Masai hoses another team to get a star, lets pray that a team trades something good for Lowry.

I understand that tanking is not risk-free, you don't seem to understand that going on with the season isn't either.
Dude this team is playing the best basketball I've ever seen them play and you're still holding on to the tank argument? I just don't get it.

Enjoy the moment and trust that we have the best GM in the league so we are in good hands.
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:07 PM   #63 (permalink)
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But the alternative to that is what? Let's ignore the future, Let's pray that this team doesn't flop and miss the playoffs, let's pray that JV becomes a top 10 player, let's pray that Lowry signs for a tiny contract, let's pray that we draft a star with the 18th pick, let's pray that we will be the next Detroit, let's pray that Masai hoses another team to get a star, lets pray that a team trades something good for Lowry.

I understand that tanking is not risk-free, you don't seem to understand that going on with the season isn't either.
How about let's not pray at all?

How about let's just enjoy a team that's finally growing together and playing great ball? How about trusting Masai to do his job, which would be talking to Kyle and coming to some sort of agreement about what he wants to do? How about trusting him to find ways to improve the team that AREN'T based solely on a high draft pick?

You're still advocating lazy, mindless GM'ing.... which isn't necessary now that we have a GM who actually seems to have a clue about how good teams are constructed.
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:12 PM   #64 (permalink)
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for all the similarities with the '06 season, I think this team has more solid foundation. That season proved to be entirely fool's gold, while this roster, if we can keep lowry, has a better foundation.

However, people completely forget the fact that lowry, amir, jv and ross are all due for small to massive salary increases in the next 3 years. This team is maxed out as is, so hoping for any kind of upgrade beyond this summer is baseless.

We may end up as the 3rd best team this season, which would be a huge accomplishment, but going forward, I think we will settle in the 4-6 range in the east for the next 2-3 seasons or so. Beyond that, it's up to masai to tweak things here and there, but it will be extremely difficult without any cap space and drafting in the low 20s/high teens.
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:13 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Fuck the tank already.
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:19 PM   #66 (permalink)
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for all the similarities with the '06 season, I think this team has more solid foundation. That season proved to be entirely fool's gold, while this roster, if we can keep lowry, has a better foundation.

However, people completely forget the fact that lowry, amir, jv and ross are all due for small to massive salary increases in the next 3 years. This team is maxed out as is, so hoping for any kind of upgrade beyond this summer is baseless.

We may end up as the 3rd best team this season, which would be a huge accomplishment, but going forward, I think we will settle in the 4-6 range in the east for the next 2-3 seasons or so. Beyond that, it's up to masai to tweak things here and there, but it will be extremely difficult without any cap space and drafting in the low 20s/high teens.
That in itself would be a MASSIVE improvement given that we've been a joke of a lottery team for nearly a decade.
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:24 PM   #67 (permalink)
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I am starting to get pretty sick of the idea that asset maximization is being labelled (every damn time) as tanking, and therefore lazy gm'ing. If we could have this conversation without the words tanking and mediocrity we might actually get somewhere.

Fuck the labels.
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:29 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Enjoy the moment and trust that we have the best GM in the league so we are in good hands.
Really? You really think he's the best GM in the league?

SAS, Indy, Houston and OKC all have better GMs. Arguments could be made for a few other GMs out west as well like PHX's.
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:30 PM   #69 (permalink)
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I am starting to get pretty sick of the idea that asset maximization is being labelled (every damn time) as tanking, and therefore lazy gm'ing. If we could have this conversation without the words tanking and mediocrity we might actually get somewhere.

Fuck the labels.
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:30 PM   #70 (permalink)
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I am starting to get pretty sick of the idea that asset maximization is being labelled (every damn time) as tanking, and therefore lazy gm'ing. If we could have this conversation without the words tanking and mediocrity we might actually get somewhere.

Fuck the labels.
I agree 100% with you dude.
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:32 PM   #71 (permalink)
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That in itself would be a MASSIVE improvement given that we've been a joke of a lottery team for nearly a decade.
yes, no question - the only question is, should we settle for that, or aim higher? Personally, I'm happy either way, after years of losing, just being a competitive team is enough. Would be nice to be a title contender, but if we have to wait for the next rebuilding cycle in 7-10 years, that wouldn't be the end of the world, provided we can be a 50 win team in the meantime.

My biggest concern is that, despite the way we played lately, we may not actually be that good. This may be due to the insecurities accumulated over the years and the transition was a little too sudden, so I fear a case of too good to be true. I'm still afraid of a collapse that comes in march, so it's too late for us to get a good pick, but bad enough to show that this is, after all, only a .500 team. Because that would be a disaster. If we suffered 5 years of pain just to be middle of the pack team, it would be pretty demoralizing.

I'm not too afraid of losing lowry because we can still give him the best terms and if we are a good team, why would he leave? He seems to be enjoying his time here.

And, if all comes to worse, we can still tank next year, the talent level may not be as deep, but the competition for tanking will not be as stiff either. And maybe we can convince wiggins to stay one more year in college
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:33 PM   #72 (permalink)
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for all the similarities with the '06 season, I think this team has more solid foundation. That season proved to be entirely fool's gold, while this roster, if we can keep lowry, has a better foundation.

However, people completely forget the fact that lowry, amir, jv and ross are all due for small to massive salary increases in the next 3 years. This team is maxed out as is, so hoping for any kind of upgrade beyond this summer is baseless.

We may end up as the 3rd best team this season, which would be a huge accomplishment, but going forward, I think we will settle in the 4-6 range in the east for the next 2-3 seasons or so. Beyond that, it's up to masai to tweak things here and there, but it will be extremely difficult without any cap space and drafting in the low 20s/high teens.
I have to agree with you as well. The squad will be very hard to improve upon, to make that next jump with little capspace and lowish picks.
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:34 PM   #73 (permalink)
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yes, no question - the only question is, should we settle for that, or aim higher? Personally, I'm happy either way, after years of losing, just being a competitive team is enough. Would be nice to be a title contender, but if we have to wait for the next rebuilding cycle in 7-10 years, that wouldn't be the end of the world, provided we can be a 50 win team in the meantime.

My biggest concern is that, despite the way we played lately, we may not actually be that good. This may be due to the insecurities accumulated over the years and the transition was a little too sudden, so I fear a case of too good to be true. I'm still afraid of a collapse that comes in march, so it's too late for us to get a good pick, but bad enough to show that this is, after all, only a .500 team. Because that would be a disaster. If we suffered 5 years of pain just to be middle of the pack team, it would be pretty demoralizing.

I'm not too afraid of losing lowry because we can still give him the best terms and if we are a good team, why would he leave? He seems to be enjoying his time here.

And, if all comes to worse, we can still tank next year, the talent level may not be as deep, but the competition for tanking will not be as stiff either. And maybe we can convince wiggins to stay one more year in college
+1
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:34 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Really? You really think he's the best GM in the league?

SAS, Indy, Houston and OKC all have better GMs. Arguments could be made for a few other GMs out west as well like PHX's.
He's the reigning executive of the year, was voted the best GM in the league last year by fellow GMs.

The work he did in Denver won him the best GM award and the work he has done so far here in Toronto is making him a strong candidate to repeat.

So yes, I do believe he is the best GM in the league as of now.
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:35 PM   #75 (permalink)
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I am starting to get pretty sick of the idea that asset maximization is being labelled (every damn time) as tanking, and therefore lazy gm'ing. If we could have this conversation without the words tanking and mediocrity we might actually get somewhere.

Fuck the labels.
How are we even talking about the idea of "maximizing assets" when we're not even close to the trade deadline yet? No reason for Masai for jump the gun and trade Lowry (or anyone else for that matter) when the team is playing well. In fact, I'd argue that the Raps players' play as of late only serves to STRENGTHEN his position at the bargaining table.
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:37 PM   #76 (permalink)
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How are we even talking about the idea of "maximizing assets" when we're not even close to the trade deadline yet? No reason for Masai for jump the gun and trade Lowry (or anyone else for that matter) when the team is playing well. In fact, I'd argue that the Raps players' play as of late only serves to STRENGTHEN his position at the bargaining table.
Being open to move anything for something better is asset maximization. There is no absolute timeline for that way of thinking, I would say.
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:38 PM   #77 (permalink)
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yes, no question - the only question is, should we settle for that, or aim higher? Personally, I'm happy either way, after years of losing, just being a competitive team is enough. Would be nice to be a title contender, but if we have to wait for the next rebuilding cycle in 7-10 years, that wouldn't be the end of the world, provided we can be a 50 win team in the meantime.
People forget that DAL was a joke of a team until Cuban bought them.... and even after that it took them YEARS to finally win a title. Many, many years of 50-win seasons only to flame out in the post-season.

I wouldn't have a problem with that scenario at all.
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:40 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Being open to move anything for something better is asset maximization. There is no absolute timeline for that way of thinking, I would say.
I agree with that 100%.

It's the "OMG WE HAVE TO TRADE EVERYONE SO WE CAN SUCK MORE AND LAND A TOP PICK!" school of thought that I have a problem with.
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:40 PM   #79 (permalink)
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People forget that DAL was a joke of a team until Cuban bought them.... and even after that it took them YEARS to finally win a title. Many, many years of 50-win seasons only to flame out in the post-season.

I wouldn't have a problem with that scenario at all.
Don't have the same owners willing to spend like Cuban and as ambitious as him. We are also in an ever shrinking cap era. Cuban also had a top 10 player at his disposal, which outside of maybe JV in the future, we don't have.
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Old 01-04-2014, 04:40 PM   #80 (permalink)
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I agree with that 100%.

It's the "OMG WE HAVE TO TRADE EVERYONE SO WE CAN SUCK MORE AND LAND A TOP PICK!" school of thought that I have a problem with.
Again, no one is saying that.
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