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Old 01-04-2014, 10:03 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Kool-Aid just stop and get off the tank. The Raptors are playing awesome basketball. It's fun. When you start talking about the risk of not tanking being injuries - you've lost. Injuries are an unavoidable risk for every team in every direction they choose.
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:22 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Kool-Aid just stop and get off the tank. The Raptors are playing awesome basketball. It's fun. When you start talking about the risk of not tanking being injuries - you've lost. Injuries are an unavoidable risk for every team in every direction they choose.
There is no sense trying to talk him out of it. Better off just leaving him be because he isn't going to change anytime soon.
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:32 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Did you guys even read his post?

MU is good but some people here think he'll absolutely fleece another team in a deal. I agree. Secondly, there's no way a major player will be signed this summer because of the salary committed for 2014/2015 which isn't even counting a possible Lowry extension/signing, the draft pick if it's kept, and anybody else signed or traded for in the offseason.

Yes, we could be in a better situation than having a player who's 28 this be our best player playing in a contract year.

And yes, the season isn't a risk-free scenario.

Regarding injuries, the raps have been ridiculously lucky thus far.
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:35 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Why does he have to sign a major player or fleece another team? These guys are worth watching.
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Old 01-04-2014, 10:45 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Why does he have to sign a major player or fleece another team? These guys are worth watching.
He's just saying that some people just practically blind think that he will do one or both of those things.
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Old 01-04-2014, 11:27 AM   #46 (permalink)
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A couple thoughts.

I think Masai is brilliant at framing everything in ways that push the right buttons. There is a new, tremendous clarity here now that makes it clear that they need to play hard and play together. The idea of interest in Afflalo gets floated out there, and looky here we have Terrence upping his game even further. There is no settling in and getting too comfortable, which is the way it should always be, but aside from the best franchises it seldom happens that way with players.

Also, i think this league is undergoing a change that lessens the need for a megastar. I think this has been going on for some time. I think we saw it start to play out when Dallas beat Miami. And Miami has been more about being a team than a collection of stars ever since, with tremendous success. And who challenged them the most? Teams with more than three, four or five guys that can play full games as a team. Teams with full rotations playing together in well-defined roles. So maybe Masai doesn't have to fleece anyone. Maybe some of that nasty internal growth that was ridiculed as recently as a couple of weeks ago, and some saavy trades and picks that keep refining and improving on the full team concept, can go a long way. Maybe. Sounds pretty rational and logical, but i can see where some will want to think they are applying rational, logical thinking in order to remain blind to the possibility, and that would be a shame.
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Old 01-04-2014, 12:52 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Why does he have to sign a major player or fleece another team? These guys are worth watching.
Look past this season for once. Do you want to have a team that's good in one of the weakest seasons ever or an actual contender? Because is order to have a contender we would have to do one of those things I mentioned in order to get a franchise player.

And in reference to your other post, injuries was just an example. You also must face the inevitable fact that the team will come back to ground, unless you honestly believe they will continue to win 3/4 of their games. And the Lowry contract situation, and the cap situation in general. There are numerous problems with this team as is, take off your blinders and look at the big picture.

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Old 01-04-2014, 01:03 PM   #48 (permalink)
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A couple thoughts.

I think Masai is brilliant at framing everything in ways that push the right buttons. There is a new, tremendous clarity here now that makes it clear that they need to play hard and play together. The idea of interest in Afflalo gets floated out there, and looky here we have Terrence upping his game even further. There is no settling in and getting too comfortable, which is the way it should always be, but aside from the best franchises it seldom happens that way with players.

Also, i think this league is undergoing a change that lessens the need for a megastar. I think this has been going on for some time. I think we saw it start to play out when Dallas beat Miami. And Miami has been more about being a team than a collection of stars ever since, with tremendous success. And who challenged them the most? Teams with more than three, four or five guys that can play full games as a team. Teams with full rotations playing together in well-defined roles. So maybe Masai doesn't have to fleece anyone. Maybe some of that nasty internal growth that was ridiculed as recently as a couple of weeks ago, and some saavy trades and picks that keep refining and improving on the full team concept, can go a long way. Maybe. Sounds pretty rational and logical, but i can see where some will want to think they are applying rational, logical thinking in order to remain blind to the possibility, and that would be a shame.
Indiana was Miami's biggest challenge last year and their bench was garbage. A full rotation is not as important as you make it out to be. The team concept, while and certainly a very important key to winning a championship, is being overrated here. Talent comes first. Before you guys start the "so you're saying everything else doesn't matter???" spiel, no I am not, I'm just saying that talent is more important than the other factors. There's a difference. Even Dallas had Dirk playing at a god-like level and he was certainly top 10. The fact that there's maybe 2 teams that have won a championship without an elite player over the last 30 years should tell you something.

And once again, internal growth does occur, but who do you see growing to the point where they're a star? I personally don't think anyone on this team has potential to be a top 15 player. I'm not going to put my hopes on Masai constantly extracting more value than he should, at some point he will flop.

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Old 01-04-2014, 01:12 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Indiana was Miami's biggest challenge last year and their bench was garbage. A full rotation is not as important as you make it out to be. The team concept, while and certainly a very important key to winning a championship, is being overrated here. Talent comes first. Before you guys start the "so you're saying everything else doesn't matter???" spiel, no I am not, I'm just saying that talent is more important than the other factors. There's a difference. Even Dallas had Dirk playing at a god-like level and he was certainly top 10. The fact that there's maybe 2 teams that have won a championship without an elite player over the last 20 years should tell you something.

And once again, internal growth does occur, but who do you see growing to the point where they're a star? I personally don't think anyone on this team has potential to be a top 15 player. I'm not going to put my hopes on Masai constantly extracting more value than he should, at some point he will flop.
Jonas will and easily could be argued a top 5 center in the NBA. Demar is easily a top 10 SG in the NBA, K low could be argued a top 5 PG in the league, Amir a a top 10 PF in the league etc. We don't need a star to be amazing. Look at the Nuggest, Indiana before Paul Geroge was THAT good, Memphis etc. I think we over estimate the need of a Lebron type player. The truth is, no matter how many stars your team has, there is going to be another 30 stars who don't win a title. The NBA has always been about building the best chemistry and having a dynamic roster who is motivated to win. Ever look at Chicago during the MJ era. If the team didn't have all the players it did surrounding MJ, he most likely would have not won some of those titles. Those rosters were built to be successful in the system the team had in place.

We have a lot of really good players, some which can be dominant. One could argue that Demar, JV, Lowry and Ross have tons of potential to get take it to the next level, but we don't need that. We need to have players working together, finding the open shot and playing tough gritty defense. That is what is happening , and I would not want to mess it up to have a player want to become the next lebron and chucking up shots to get his number...Or do we forget what happened when Rudy was with us?
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Old 01-04-2014, 01:21 PM   #50 (permalink)
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K low could be argued a top 5 PG in the league,
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Old 01-04-2014, 01:33 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Yeah, he was fine until that point.
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Old 01-04-2014, 01:33 PM   #52 (permalink)
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There is no sense trying to talk him out of it. Better off just leaving him be because he isn't going to change anytime soon.
Isn't it great that someone always wants to piss in our beer because he refuses invitations to the bar?
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Old 01-04-2014, 02:18 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Also, i think this league is undergoing a change that lessens the need for a megastar. I think this has been going on for some time. I think we saw it start to play out when Dallas beat Miami. And Miami has been more about being a team than a collection of stars ever since, with tremendous success. And who challenged them the most? Teams with more than three, four or five guys that can play full games as a team. Teams with full rotations playing together in well-defined roles. So maybe Masai doesn't have to fleece anyone. Maybe some of that nasty internal growth that was ridiculed as recently as a couple of weeks ago, and some saavy trades and picks that keep refining and improving on the full team concept, can go a long way. Maybe. Sounds pretty rational and logical, but i can see where some will want to think they are applying rational, logical thinking in order to remain blind to the possibility, and that would be a shame.
This is 100% true and I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing it.

New York is struggling so badly because they are still stuck in that mentality of the "superstar" team with Melo being the "go to guy".

Same reason Denver was successful last year with Masai, & us this year post Rudy. This kind of play is the future of the league.
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Old 01-04-2014, 02:22 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Jonas will and easily could be argued a top 5 center in the NBA. Demar is easily a top 10 SG in the NBA, K low could be argued a top 5 PG in the league, Amir a a top 10 PF in the league etc. We don't need a star to be amazing. Look at the Nuggest, Indiana before Paul Geroge was THAT good, Memphis etc. I think we over estimate the need of a Lebron type player. The truth is, no matter how many stars your team has, there is going to be another 30 stars who don't win a title. The NBA has always been about building the best chemistry and having a dynamic roster who is motivated to win. Ever look at Chicago during the MJ era. If the team didn't have all the players it did surrounding MJ, he most likely would have not won some of those titles. Those rosters were built to be successful in the system the team had in place.

We have a lot of really good players, some which can be dominant. One could argue that Demar, JV, Lowry and Ross have tons of potential to get take it to the next level, but we don't need that. We need to have players working together, finding the open shot and playing tough gritty defense. That is what is happening , and I would not want to mess it up to have a player want to become the next lebron and chucking up shots to get his number...Or do we forget what happened when Rudy was with us?
There's so much wrong with this post. You used Denver as an example that a team can contend without a star? They lost in the first round with home court advantage. Nobody is saying you need Lebron to contend, just one elite talent at minimum. You use the Chicago Bulls to say you can win without a star? What? You realize that MJ was by far the most important piece of that puzzle right? And while he wouldn't have been as successful without the rest of the guys, they most certainly wouldn't have won a damn thing without him (yes I'm aware of the two seasons where he left in which Scottie Pippen was an elite player who led that team to 50+ wins). I have already said that I'm not saying that an elite player is going to win a championship by himself, just that that's the most important piece to the puzzle and it's important to get that player early in your building of the team so that the players can mesh well and develop a chemistry together rather than interrupting a good team by inserting an elite player in there who may not fit and causes you to recreate the whole team.
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Old 01-04-2014, 02:38 PM   #55 (permalink)
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There's so much wrong with this post. You used Denver as an example that a team can contend without a star? They lost in the first round with home court advantage. Nobody is saying you need Lebron to contend, just one elite talent at minimum. You use the Chicago Bulls to say you can win without a star? What? You realize that MJ was by far the most important piece of that puzzle right? And while he wouldn't have been as successful without the rest of the guys, they most certainly wouldn't have won a damn thing without him (yes I'm aware of the two seasons where he left in which Scottie Pippen was an elite player who led that team to 50+ wins). I have already said that I'm not saying that an elite player is going to win a championship by himself, just that that's the most important piece to the puzzle and it's important to get that player early in your building of the team so that the players can mesh well and develop a chemistry together rather than interrupting a good team by inserting an elite player in there who may not fit and causes you to recreate the whole team.
First of all, there is nothing wrong with my post. Get off your high horse and accept that a forum is about debate and not about bowing down to your opinions. Secondly, I said Lowry could be argued to be a top 5 point guard. I am not saying he is easily, or that he is, but that I believe a debate could be had at this point of the season. If you don't believe so that is your opinion, but don't have the audacity to believe that your opinion is only right, because that makes you look like an ass.

Secondly, you only looked at two of the examples I have of elite teams, and completely looked at a sample size where, you could debate that my argument could have been week. MJ was the big piece, but if he didn't have players like Hodges, Kukoc, Harper Paxson etc. they would have most likely not won anything. Your point about Denver is very weak. Looks at what they accomplished with no star on their team? You overlook all of that because they lost in the playoffs? Why didn't you take of my sample that Memphis made it to the conference finals?
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Old 01-04-2014, 03:23 PM   #56 (permalink)
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First of all, there is nothing wrong with my post. Get off your high horse and accept that a forum is about debate and not about bowing down to your opinions. Secondly, I said Lowry could be argued to be a top 5 point guard. I am not saying he is easily, or that he is, but that I believe a debate could be had at this point of the season. If you don't believe so that is your opinion, but don't have the audacity to believe that your opinion is only right, because that makes you look like an ass.

Secondly, you only looked at two of the examples I have of elite teams, and completely looked at a sample size where, you could debate that my argument could have been week. MJ was the big piece, but if he didn't have players like Hodges, Kukoc, Harper Paxson etc. they would have most likely not won anything. Your point about Denver is very weak. Looks at what they accomplished with no star on their team? You overlook all of that because they lost in the playoffs? Why didn't you take of my sample that Memphis made it to the conference finals?
There is no argument to be made for Lowry in the top 5 except one by a homer. CP3, Curry, Lillard, Bledsoe, Tony Parker, and Lawson have all been undoubtably better than him this season. That's even if you don't count all the injured players who are better than him. Lowry is top 10 on a good day.

I already answered what you said about Chicago:

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while he wouldn't have had as much success without those guys, they most certainly wouldn't have won a damn thing without him...I'm not saying that an elite player is going to win a championship by himself, just that it's the most important piece to the puzzle and it's important to get that piece early in your building of the team
Yeah, I will overlook Denver's success because I know that you don't need a star to win in the regular season, but once you get to that point of success what really matters is the playoffs and they are stuck in a position where they will not break up their team because it's too good but they also won't make it to past the 2nd round, if that far. Memphis is a curious case, and while they made it far, they still lost to a team that had everything they had and some elite players.

Still, my point stands that over the last 30 years there have been at most 2 teams without a top 10 player on their roster to win a championship, that should be our ultimate goal for this team, should it not? Therefore, my suggestion is that we find this elite player, and continue the process of building around that player in order to become a contender. I just don't see where we will find that player anywhere other than the draft.

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Old 01-04-2014, 03:28 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Old 01-04-2014, 03:38 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Would you guys want salmons back? I know I would
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Old 01-04-2014, 03:42 PM   #59 (permalink)
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So what's your argument then Kool-Aid? Break it down for everyone once and for all so we can all get it right.... because this is what I'm hearing...

"Let's deal Lowry NOW (ignoring the fact that the trade deadline is more than a month away and no great deals are on the table). Let's look to deal Demar too. Let's try to uno all the growth that this team has seen over the past few weeks then let's pray that we're bad enough to land a top 5 pick.... And then let's pray that that top 5 pick turns into a franchise player.

And then let's repeat the whole process for the next 2 seasons until we have 3 or 4 all-stars in our starting 5.

That about cover it? Because that's what I'm hearing.... and frankly, it sounds ludicrous.
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Old 01-04-2014, 03:48 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Would you guys want salmons back? I know I would
Nope. He's much more valuable in a trade with only that 1 million guaranteed next season. GIANT TRADE CHIP.
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