Wolstat: Raptors' Recent Play Has Been 'Huge Encouragement' To Ujiri But...

DanH · 01-07-2014, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck

Or at least the Jose $10 mill per rate!

But, if the extension was getting negotiated this summer under the new CBA, no matter who was the Raptor GM, I don't think an extension was going to happen. I doubt BC could have got Lowry's agent to take the roughly $20ish mill for 3 extra years.

No obviously an extension is out of the question for Lowry. That of course is exactly the point - if you want to keep Lowry, you MUST take the risk that he walks for nothing. Whether that risk is worth taking is a very good question, and depends on a lot, including what offers are out there for him at the deadline.

Bill Haverchuck · 01-07-2014, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanH

No obviously an extension is out of the question for Lowry. That of course is exactly the point - if you want to keep Lowry, you MUST take the risk that he walks for nothing. Whether that risk is worth taking is a very good question, and depends on a lot, including what offers are out there for him at the deadline.

Look at what Chicago got for Deng. Ew. Gross.

This is a buyer's market right now. I think the birds rights are like having a pick. I'd rather have the birds rights lottery ticket that might come out a winner or a loser than have that Sacramento 1st rounder that Chicago will likely never see because it gets turned into a second rounder due to all the protections. I'm not sure the deadline is going to make it much better for sellers. We'll have to wait and see. Personally, I hope we've won so much by then that a trade is just simply out of the question.

DanH · 01-07-2014, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck

Look at what Chicago got for Deng. Ew. Gross.

This is a buyer's market right now. I think the birds rights are like having a pick. I'd rather have the birds rights lottery ticket that might come out a winner or a loser than have that Sacramento 1st rounder that Chicago will likely never see because it gets turned into a second rounder due to all the protections. I'm not sure the deadline is going to make it much better for sellers. We'll have to wait and see. Personally, I hope we've won so much by then that a trade is just simply out of the question.

Chicago didn't want to take money back. The picks were secondary for them - Bynum's contract was the big get in that deal. Trading Lowry, I'd hope to take back a useless player on a two year contract, thus earning a decent pick return.

If we're pacing to 50 wins or more at the deadline, maybe Ujiri is more comfortable taking that risk (depending on the return). Just don't judge potential returns based on that Deng deal. Different situation.

JoeyJoJo Shabbadu · 01-07-2014, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck

Look at what Chicago got for Deng. Ew. Gross.

This is a buyer's market right now. I think the birds rights are like having a pick. I'd rather have the birds rights lottery ticket that might come out a winner or a loser than have that Sacramento 1st rounder that Chicago will likely never see because it gets turned into a second rounder due to all the protections. I'm not sure the deadline is going to make it much better for sellers. We'll have to wait and see. Personally, I hope we've won so much by then that a trade is just simply out of the question.

This.

m5racer · 01-07-2014, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck

Personally, I hope we've won so much by then that a trade is just simply out of the question.

I have a good feeling that MU feels the same way as you. Him and Lewikie both emphasize that the key to getting better as a franchise is to WIN...Not to tank and get a high pick, but to WIN GAMES, create some winning buzz and build a wining culture. Our team is so young still that adding more shit ass picks (if were offered something similar to what cle just gave) is redundant and unnecessary in terms of building up a wining culture and making this team attractive to other players in FA in the future.....Its more worth it to ride Lowery out till the years end (assuming we continue to play well).

And even if Lowery did get traded, talk out there in the media suggests that he would most likely become a backup which im sure is the very last thing he would want to do considering its a contact year

LOG · 01-07-2014, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanH

Chicago didn't want to take money back. The picks were secondary for them - Bynum's contract was the big get in that deal. Trading Lowry, I'd hope to take back a useless player on a two year contract, thus earning a decent pick return.

If we're pacing to 50 wins or more at the deadline, maybe Ujiri is more comfortable taking that risk (depending on the return). Just don't judge potential returns based on that Deng deal. Different situation.

Not sure how this post is getting thumbs down, I guess if you say the truth but it's not a popular opinion that's what happens..

Tommy C · 01-07-2014, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanH

Chicago didn't want to take money back. The picks were secondary for them - Bynum's contract was the big get in that deal. Trading Lowry, I'd hope to take back a useless player on a two year contract, thus earning a decent pick return.

If we're pacing to 50 wins or more at the deadline, maybe Ujiri is more comfortable taking that risk (depending on the return). Just don't judge potential returns based on that Deng deal. Different situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOG

Not sure how this post is getting thumbs down, I guess if you say the truth but it's not a popular opinion that's what happens..

While the situation is different the bottom line is the same. Deng is a rental, same as Lowry, same like Jose was last year with Detroit that got rid of Prince to unload his contract...
In real world, rental don’t carry much value unless there is a team in win-now mode in a need to improve right away for a playoff run.
In order to get picks for Lowry we will need to take a 2 yr contract back with a pick. If Lowry was signed until 2014-2015 his trade value was much better, but since he is a rental and can walk at the end of the year, not a lot of team will need him. One team that I can think of is OKC with RW being out. If they wanna go deep Lowry to back him up could be a good move.

TORaptor4Ever · 01-07-2014, 01:12 PM

I'm wondering what this does to the market for Melo too..... I still have a feeling that we may see a Pau for Melo trade before the deadline's past.

moremilk · 01-07-2014, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever

I'm wondering what this does to the market for Melo too..... I still have a feeling that we may see a Pau for Melo trade before the deadline's past.

not with the way they're playing lately, they're as hot as we are with road wins over sas and dallas and last seconds loss to houston.

**halphbreedballer** · 01-07-2014, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck

No.

No.

First off, you lose Lowry's birds rights if you trade him. Then we can't sign him over the cap. That makes re-signing him almost impossible if another team offers a raise, unless we let Patterson go, don't get any new contracts back in a trade, don't sign a replacement for Patterson and forfeit use of the MLE. Horrible plan. Horrible.

Second, who cares if it's a business. When you're on a team that's rolling, and the GM trades you away and fucks with a good thing, that's going to be annoying. "I was just trying to get assets, nothing personal" isn't going to smooth things over because it shows a lack of commitment and loyalty to what the current roster is developing together. You expect Lowry to be like "oh, okay, I'll come back later when you've decided that winning is enjoyable."

Did you mean to say that we probably would NOT be talking about him being a free agent? I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you trying to imply that there is a something significant about the fact that he has not been extended yet? Because there is nothing significant about that.

The CBA limits the raises that an extension can give to a veteran contract. The Raptors could not necessarily even make Lowry a fair offer on an extension, depending on what you think Lowry is worth. Not because they wouldn't want to make a fair offer, but because the CBA limited what they could offer until his current deal expired. In an extension, the Raps are limited to giving set raises, starting at 107.5% of his salary this season. And since Lowry is arguably underpaid right now, those humble raises, arguably, don't amount to fair market value in the future. When signing an entirely new deal this summer, those restrictions won't apply. It's a fresh contract.

So, an extension over the summer did not necessarily make sense for either party. Giving the Raps a chance to see if he can stay healthy and consistent, while giving Lowry a chance to earn a better pay cheque by getting a fresh deal off birds rights after proving himself, is a situation that works well for both parties.

Really? He was already just about to be traded. He has no reason to have any loyalty to MU as he never traded with Houston for him.

The writing is on the wall & has been since Gay was traded.

Kirby · 01-07-2014, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOG

Not sure how this post is getting thumbs down, I guess if you say the truth but it's not a popular opinion that's what happens..

lmao it's just a mechanic for the trolls.

bill and danh's great posts are here for both sides, acknowledge and watch on.

01-07-2014, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck

No.

No.

First off, you lose Lowry's birds rights if you trade him. Then we can't sign him over the cap. That makes re-signing him almost impossible if another team offers a raise, unless we let Patterson go, don't get any new contracts back in a trade, don't sign a replacement for Patterson and forfeit use of the MLE. Horrible plan. Horrible.

Second, who cares if it's a business. When you're on a team that's rolling, and the GM trades you away and fucks with a good thing, that's going to be annoying. "I was just trying to get assets, nothing personal" isn't going to smooth things over because it shows a lack of commitment and loyalty to what the current roster is developing together. You expect Lowry to be like "oh, okay, I'll come back later when you've decided that winning is enjoyable."

Did you mean to say that we probably would NOT be talking about him being a free agent? I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you trying to imply that there is a something significant about the fact that he has not been extended yet? Because there is nothing significant about that.

The CBA limits the raises that an extension can give to a veteran contract. The Raptors could not necessarily even make Lowry a fair offer on an extension, depending on what you think Lowry is worth. Not because they wouldn't want to make a fair offer, but because the CBA limited what they could offer until his current deal expired. In an extension, the Raps are limited to giving set raises, starting at 107.5% of his salary this season. And since Lowry is arguably underpaid right now, those humble raises, arguably, don't amount to fair market value in the future. When signing an entirely new deal this summer, those restrictions won't apply. It's a fresh contract.

So, an extension over the summer did not necessarily make sense for either party. Giving the Raps a chance to see if he can stay healthy and consistent, while giving Lowry a chance to earn a better pay cheque by getting a fresh deal off birds rights after proving himself, is a situation that works well for both parties.

Definitely agree with you. Well said

Bill Haverchuck · 01-07-2014, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanH

Chicago didn't want to take money back. The picks were secondary for them - Bynum's contract was the big get in that deal. Trading Lowry, I'd hope to take back a useless player on a two year contract, thus earning a decent pick return.

If we're pacing to 50 wins or more at the deadline, maybe Ujiri is more comfortable taking that risk (depending on the return). Just don't judge potential returns based on that Deng deal. Different situation.

Yeah, I'll agree that the tax implications make it different. We have the flexibility and willingness to take a longer deal back if it netted a higher pick. But it's still gross, and suggests to me it's a buyer's market. I mean, Deng is a two time all-star. Even if it is a rental, in a normal market that should usually fetch you at least a decent prospect, good rotation player, or a guaranteed 1st. Even when Memphis was trying to shed Rudy's albatross of a contract and avoid tax, they still got some useful parts back, and Ed was, arguably, equivalent to getting a 1st. The market looks different this year.

I gave you a +1 because I don't know why someone thumbed you down. But I still think it's a buyer's market, even if we might operate differently than Chicago within that market.

Kirby · 01-07-2014, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ball Don't Lie

That's debatable, but I can definitely see why people think this. It's really hard to tell how good of a facilitator Isaiah is with two ISO guys as his primary targets(and defensively, due to the Kings terrible team defence), which is why I've been so impressed with his assists numbers as a starter, as I thought he'd be in the 6 APG range much like Lillard. Though Lowry has really come into his own in terms of getting into the lane and getting people involved since the Rudy trade, something he's never done consistently until this season.

Kings locker room are unhappy with Thomas' scoring mentality. Not right for them, maybe we can get him

jeffb · 01-07-2014, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirby

Kings locker room are unhappy with Thomas' scoring mentality. Not right for them, maybe we can get him

No thanks

Dario · 01-07-2014, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb

No thanks

why not? lowrys gone after this season dude

JoeyJoJo Shabbadu · 01-07-2014, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halphbreedballer

Really? He was already just about to be traded. He has no reason to have any loyalty to MU as he never traded with Houston for him.

The writing is on the wall & has been since Gay was traded.

what the... your really imagining things here.

Dario · 01-07-2014, 11:22 PM

its not that i want lowry gone, its just i dont think we can resign him, or if its worth it long term

jeffb · 01-07-2014, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dario

its not that i want lowry gone, its just i dont think we can resign him, or if its worth it long term

Why can't we again? I'd like to know why he's going to be so difficult to re-sign? Does anyone think he's going to get 10-12mil/yr or something?

LOG · 01-07-2014, 11:27 PM

Yea I think he is going to get 9-11mil
If we could sign him for 8 I'd be happy

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01-07-2014, 01:12 PM	#248 (permalink)
TORaptor4Ever "Fake All-Star" Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 16,433 Representing:	I'm wondering what this does to the market for Melo too..... I still have a feeling that we may see a Pau for Melo trade before the deadline's past.

01-07-2014, 11:22 PM	#258 (permalink)
Dario Keep it simple Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Vancouver Posts: 9,614 Representing:	its not that i want lowry gone, its just i dont think we can resign him, or if its worth it long term

01-07-2014, 11:27 PM	#260 (permalink)
LOG Is sick and tired of Casey Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Toronto Posts: 10,741 Representing:	Yea I think he is going to get 9-11mil If we could sign him for 8 I'd be happy