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Old 01-06-2014, 08:39 PM   #221 (permalink)
Masai Ujiri

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Call me a homer (not really), but I like Lowry more than Isaiah aside from the age difference. Just because of the skill set. Isaiah is more of a scoring point, while Lowry's been steadily improving as a facilitator as well as dead-eye shooting (seriously, he's a great shooter). Combine that with assertiveness and you have the all-star level Lowry we have been seeing and not the neutered Lowry deferring to everyone.

However, I would be very happy if we could grab Isaiah or Bled.

Look, all I'm saying is instead of the extra shitty wins this year, we can grab a great young piece via the draft to grow with the rest of our young pieces. If we can get any sort of liquidable asset for Lowry, we should.
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:39 PM   #222 (permalink)
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Raptors in the Top 10 on ESPN power rankings. As for Lowry/ Thomas debate I'd take Lowry on both ends over Thomas
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:44 PM   #223 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck View Post
Here is some stuff I consider just basic common fuckin' sense that should be considered but gets overlooked:

1 - We're winning on the ROAD. Winning on the road is not fools gold. The same shit was said about Golden State about 30-40 games into last season. People here (I remember Jeffb, for example) and at the global board at RealGM didn't buy that they were legit. The thing is, GS was winning on the road. It's tough to do that, no matter who your opponent is. Road wins are like the litmus test for a quality team. Watch enough sports and you learn that.

Of course, you can't play at your hottest level for a whole season; no team does. So I think we will cool off a little bit. BUT (and this is important), we are so hot right now - like Hansel hot - that even when we cool down we will be playing "45-50 win team" type ball.

2 - In terms of Lowry leaving after this season, where the fuck is he going? Hey. Have you guys thought about that? Like what team is going to gobble him up? Orlando? Utah? Charlotte? The Lakers (who already have over $33 committed to Bryant and Nash next year)?

What team is going to offer a 28 year old PG 4 years/$35-40 million? 28 is not old, to be clear. It's a great age for leading our team right now and for the next few years as we continue to catch up to elite teams.

But some of the teams with cap space are not in "win now mode". He's gonna be less appealing to them.

Where is he going guys? Why is it more attractive than staying with this team if we make the playoffs and have developed a winning culture, where he is an integral part of a winning team?

Personally, at least right now, I see the option of trading Lowry as more risky. Because you're risking blowing something that is awesome, based on a perceived, and possibly horribly ill-conceived concern that he might leave us.

3 - In my opinion, the Lowry situation should not be compared to the Bosh situation. People need to stop. Here is why.

- There was a lot of $ floating around to sign free agents the year Bosh left. Lots of risk for departure. The risk was much greater, especially with potential for stars pairing up and shit like that.

-Also, the team didn't have the same ability to bounce back. Bosh literally was the team. No Bosh left you with a bunch of unathletic, jump shooting euros and some role players.

That's not the case here. We have 4 other quality starters, 3 of whom are 24 or younger and will continue to get better. We also have a couple of decent young bench bigs in PP and Hansbrough. If Lowry did leave, we could probably pick up Jameer Nelson in the off-season and still make the playoffs the next year. We'd be a worse team, no doubt, and keeping Lowry would be ideal, but the fallout would be nothing like when Bosh left and Demar was a puppy. In terms of risk and consequences, I see these situations as very disimilar.
Why is it awful for any other team than us to sign Lowry at that money lol? that's suspect.
I agree that re-signing him would be great... at the cost of this season's high pick though... fuck no.

point 3: yes I agree we have quality starters who will only improve, but where the fuck are we going with say a Lowry or Jameer Nelson and no other piece to add to that? Imagine a piece in this draft to go along with what we got. Losing Lowry and getting some shitty stop-gap PG like Nelson or going with Vasquez doesn't do shit for us but keep us in 7-11 in a season where our whole conference isn't tanking.

I see what you mean by us winning on the road vs GSW, OKC, and whatnot, but I look at that as a good sign only because if we add another potential piece to the core, we would be able to consistently improve and beat such opponents.
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:56 PM   #224 (permalink)
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Why is it awful for any other team than us to sign Lowry at that money lol? that's suspect.
I didn't say it's awful. I'm saying that it doesn't work well with the current state of some of the teams that can do it. Why would a rebuilding team spend that money on him. He's worth it to a "win now" team like us.

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I agree that re-signing him would be great... at the cost of this season's high pick though... fuck no.
YOU'RE NOT GETTING A HIGH PICK THIS SEASON. GET OVER IT.

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point 3: yes I agree we have quality starters who will only improve, but where the fuck are we going with say a Lowry or Jameer Nelson and no other piece to add to that? Imagine a piece in this draft to go along with what we got. Losing Lowry and getting some shitty stop-gap PG like Nelson or going with Vasquez doesn't do shit for us but keep us in 7-11 in a season where our whole conference isn't tanking.
You guys keep forgetting that you don't lose picks by making the playoffs. Seriously. We still have a pick in this draft, even if we keep Lowry. And since so many teams are tanking, and we're at .500 after 30 games, you're not getting a top 5-8 pick in this draft, even if you trade lowry.


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I see what you mean by us winning on the road vs GSW, OKC, and whatnot, but I look at that as a good sign only because if we add another potential piece to the core, we would be able to consistently improve and beat such opponents.
One more piece! One more piece! When will the madness end!
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:57 PM   #225 (permalink)
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As a starter, Isaiah is averaging 21 points, 8 assists, 3 rebounds, 1 steal, on 47-44-84. He's one of the most efficient players in the NBA right now, to say Lowry is a better offensive player than him is just wrong. Defensively? Absolutely, but again, Isaiah is 3 years younger than Lowry, and his yearly production and overall game has improved a large amount over the course of his first 3 seasons.
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:59 PM   #226 (permalink)
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As a starter, Isaiah is averaging 21 points, 8 assists, 3 rebounds, 1 steal, on 47-44-84. He's one of the most efficient players in the NBA right now, to say Lowry is a better offensive player than him is just wrong. Defensively? Absolutely, but again, Isaiah is 3 years younger than Lowry, and his yearly production and overall game has improved a large amount over the course of his first 3 seasons.
I've acknowledged all your counter-points in my original post.

idk if I called him a better offensive player, but I did say that Isaiah is a scoring PG and that Lowry can facilitate better.
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Old 01-06-2014, 09:00 PM   #227 (permalink)
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I didn't say it's awful. I'm saying that it doesn't work well with the current state of some of the teams that can do it. Why would a rebuilding team spend that money on him. He's worth it to a "win now" team like us.



YOU'RE NOT GETTING A HIGH PICK THIS SEASON. GET OVER IT.



You guys keep forgetting that you don't lose picks by making the playoffs. Seriously. We still have a pick in this draft, even if we keep Lowry. And since so many teams are tanking, and we're at .500 after 30 games, you're not getting a top 5-8 pick in this draft, even if you trade lowry.




One more piece! One more piece! When will the madness end!
What I'm saying it a high pick certainly would help, and not just some mid 20s pick. It's not too late to turn around and get somewhere in the lottery at all.
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Old 01-06-2014, 09:02 PM   #228 (permalink)
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I've acknowledged all your counter-points in my original post.

idk if I called him a better offensive player, but I did say that Isaiah is a scoring PG and that Lowry can facilitate better.
That's debatable, but I can definitely see why people think this. It's really hard to tell how good of a facilitator Isaiah is with two ISO guys as his primary targets(and defensively, due to the Kings terrible team defence), which is why I've been so impressed with his assists numbers as a starter, as I thought he'd be in the 6 APG range much like Lillard. Though Lowry has really come into his own in terms of getting into the lane and getting people involved since the Rudy trade, something he's never done consistently until this season.
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Old 01-06-2014, 09:05 PM   #229 (permalink)
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That's debatable, but I can definitely see why people think this. It's really hard to tell how good of a facilitator Isaiah is with two ISO guys as his primary targets(and defensively, due to the Kings terrible team defence), which is why I've been so impressed with his assists numbers as a starter, as I thought he'd be in the 6 APG range much like Lillard. Though Lowry has really come into his own in terms of getting into the lane and getting people involved since the Rudy trade, something he's never done consistently until this season.
yeah for sure his numbers are amazing so far, and in a better team perhaps he can make even more of a difference. that team is toxic lol they're already having problems in the Kings lockerroom (via some article or tweets recently).

don't get me wrong, I'd love to get IT, but they traded Vasquez who they recently acquired to make the PG of the future just to get this guy PT. (although that could just be because Vasquez isn't starting material).
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Old 01-06-2014, 09:19 PM   #230 (permalink)
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That's debatable, but I can definitely see why people think this. It's really hard to tell how good of a facilitator Isaiah is with two ISO guys as his primary targets(and defensively, due to the Kings terrible team defence), which is why I've been so impressed with his assists numbers as a starter, as I thought he'd be in the 6 APG range much like Lillard. Though Lowry has really come into his own in terms of getting into the lane and getting people involved since the Rudy trade, something he's never done consistently until this season.
Also, the team has taken on a lot of Lowry's personality in how they are playing, and that's been a real positive for them. No backing down or fear.
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:56 PM   #231 (permalink)
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What I'm saying it a high pick certainly would help, and not just some mid 20s pick. It's not too late to turn around and get somewhere in the lottery at all.
YA HERD?
Just wow... and you think I'm trolling and you post this garbage still.

Since you didn't bother to answer my question I will spell it out for you to add to Bill's great post. Bosh was a MAX DOLLAR PLAYER. He could make max dollars no matter where he went (or $1 million less as was the case). So since money it not the issue he could pick where he wanted to play. There was a team will their entire cap space to spend on Lebron and Bosh to make a winner. That does NOT exisit this year. Lowry is NOT a max dollar player and as long as we are willing to pay him it is NOT THE SAME.
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Old 01-06-2014, 11:18 PM   #232 (permalink)
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What I'm saying it a high pick certainly would help, and not just some mid 20s pick. It's not too late to turn around and get somewhere in the lottery at all.
YA HERD?
Wow. You and Kool-Aid are nothing if not persistent... I'll give you that.

Care to tell us HOW we go from playing great ball to absolutely sucking though? And please don't try to tell me that Lowry to GV downgrade will result in 20+ less wins.
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Old 01-07-2014, 03:43 AM   #233 (permalink)
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People underestimate GV. If we move Lowry it's not like we have a d-leaguer as a PG. He was very solid with NO but he needs to adapt to our system, but you can clearly see that DC is way more comfortable with Lowry as we try to win as much as possible. Anyhow... The tank is dead, even if we trade Lowry I am sure MU has a plan.
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Old 01-07-2014, 04:12 AM   #234 (permalink)
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Wow. You and Kool-Aid are nothing if not persistent... I'll give you that.

Care to tell us HOW we go from playing great ball to absolutely sucking though? And please don't try to tell me that Lowry to GV downgrade will result in 20+ less wins.
Anytime you lose your best player who has a massive effect on both ends of the floor, you're gonna lose more games. Especially when the one to replace him is nowhere near adequate to start. Why can't I use that reason?

and there is no right or wrong answer. your opinion vs mine.
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Old 01-07-2014, 04:14 AM   #235 (permalink)
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Just wow... and you think I'm trolling and you post this garbage still.

Since you didn't bother to answer my question I will spell it out for you to add to Bill's great post. Bosh was a MAX DOLLAR PLAYER. He could make max dollars no matter where he went (or $1 million less as was the case). So since money it not the issue he could pick where he wanted to play. There was a team will their entire cap space to spend on Lebron and Bosh to make a winner. That does NOT exisit this year. Lowry is NOT a max dollar player and as long as we are willing to pay him it is NOT THE SAME.
fair enough, point accepted. but yeah, you keep it coming as well.
UR POST MORE GARBAGE OK
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Old 01-07-2014, 09:16 AM   #236 (permalink)
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fair enough, point accepted. but yeah, you keep it coming as well.
UR POST MORE GARBAGE OK
I am with Kirby. But not about the garbage part.

Lowry must be traded because of his free agency status period. If your MU you tell him that you will be in the front of the line to acquire his services at seasons end. And the only reason your moving him is to acquire assets. Lowry of all players on this team knows this is a business, seeing as he has been traded many times.

If Lowry was a Raptor his whole career we probably would be talking about him being a free agent... As he would have been extended.
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Old 01-07-2014, 09:41 AM   #237 (permalink)
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I am with Kirby. But not about the garbage part.

Lowry must be traded because of his free agency status period. If your MU you tell him that you will be in the front of the line to acquire his services at seasons end. And the only reason your moving him is to acquire assets. Lowry of all players on this team knows this is a business, seeing as he has been traded many times.

If Lowry was a Raptor his whole career we probably would be talking about him being a free agent... As he would have been extended.
If Lowry was a Raptor his whole career, we wouldn't be talking about free agency because BC would have signed him to a 6 year 75 million dollar deal a few years ago.

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Old 01-07-2014, 09:46 AM   #238 (permalink)
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Lowry must be traded because of his free agency status period.
No.

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If your MU you tell him that you will be in the front of the line to acquire his services at seasons end. And the only reason your moving him is to acquire assets. Lowry of all players on this team knows this is a business, seeing as he has been traded many times.
No.

First off, you lose Lowry's birds rights if you trade him. Then we can't sign him over the cap. That makes re-signing him almost impossible if another team offers a raise, unless we let Patterson go, don't get any new contracts back in a trade, don't sign a replacement for Patterson and forfeit use of the MLE. Horrible plan. Horrible.

Second, who cares if it's a business. When you're on a team that's rolling, and the GM trades you away and fucks with a good thing, that's going to be annoying. "I was just trying to get assets, nothing personal" isn't going to smooth things over because it shows a lack of commitment and loyalty to what the current roster is developing together. You expect Lowry to be like "oh, okay, I'll come back later when you've decided that winning is enjoyable."

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If Lowry was a Raptor his whole career we probably would be talking about him being a free agent... As he would have been extended.
Did you mean to say that we probably would NOT be talking about him being a free agent? I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you trying to imply that there is a something significant about the fact that he has not been extended yet? Because there is nothing significant about that.

The CBA limits the raises that an extension can give to a veteran contract. The Raptors could not necessarily even make Lowry a fair offer on an extension, depending on what you think Lowry is worth. Not because they wouldn't want to make a fair offer, but because the CBA limited what they could offer until his current deal expired. In an extension, the Raps are limited to giving set raises, starting at 107.5% of his salary this season. And since Lowry is arguably underpaid right now, those humble raises, arguably, don't amount to fair market value in the future. When signing an entirely new deal this summer, those restrictions won't apply. It's a fresh contract.

So, an extension over the summer did not necessarily make sense for either party. Giving the Raps a chance to see if he can stay healthy and consistent, while giving Lowry a chance to earn a better pay cheque by getting a fresh deal off birds rights after proving himself, is a situation that works well for both parties.

Last edited by Bill Haverchuck; 01-07-2014 at 09:58 AM. Reason: clarity on the raises point
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Old 01-07-2014, 10:03 AM   #239 (permalink)
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If Lowry was a Raptor his whole career, we wouldn't be talking about free agency because BC would have signed him to a 6 year 75 million dollar deal a few years ago.

Or at least the Jose $10 mill per rate!

But, if the extension was getting negotiated this summer under the new CBA, no matter who was the Raptor GM, I don't think an extension was going to happen. I doubt BC could have got Lowry's agent to take the roughly $20ish mill for 3 extra years.
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Old 01-07-2014, 10:09 AM   #240 (permalink)
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No.



No.

First off, you lose Lowry's birds rights if you trade him. Then we can't sign him over the cap. That makes re-signing him almost impossible if another team offers a raise, unless we let Patterson go, don't get any new contracts back in a trade, don't sign a replacement for Patterson and forfeit use of the MLE. Horrible plan. Horrible.

Second, who cares if it's a business. When you're on a team that's rolling, and the GM trades you away and fucks with a good thing, that's going to be annoying. "I was just trying to get assets, nothing personal" isn't going to smooth things over because it shows a lack of commitment and loyalty to what the current roster is developing together. You expect Lowry to be like "oh, okay, I'll come back later when you've decided that winning is enjoyable."



Did you mean to say that we probably would NOT be talking about him being a free agent? I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you trying to imply that there is a something significant about the fact that he has not been extended yet? Because there is nothing significant about that.

The CBA limits the raises that an extension can give to a veteran contract. The Raptors could not necessarily even make Lowry a fair offer on an extension, depending on what you think Lowry is worth. Not because they wouldn't want to make a fair offer, but because the CBA limited what they could offer until his current deal expired. In an extension, the Raps are limited to giving set raises, starting at 107.5% of his salary this season. And since Lowry is arguably underpaid right now, those humble raises, arguably, don't amount to fair market value in the future. When signing an entirely new deal this summer, those restrictions won't apply. It's a fresh contract.

So, an extension over the summer did not necessarily make sense for either party. Giving the Raps a chance to see if he can stay healthy and consistent, while giving Lowry a chance to earn a better pay cheque by getting a fresh deal off birds rights after proving himself, is a situation that works well for both parties.
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