Wolstat: Raptors deepest roster in years - Page 3
Old 10-23-2012, 12:52 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Firstly by brainwashed, I meant that people are primed to think in such a way after just witnessing Miami win. I didn't want use such a technical term in case I would have to explain what that meant, so if you don't know what that is google it. But here's a little tidbit, priming has nothing to do with the expertise someone has on a subject but rather the recency of information.

Secondly when did I say that superstars weren't important? I stated "I can't believe guys are saying depth isn't that important.", meaning I was emphasizing it's importance, but in no way did I say it was more important than star power.

Finally the six Bulls teams that won, as I recall, only had two superstars and a bunch of other good role players that provided depth (one could argue three with rodman, I wouldn't and he wasn't there for every bulls team). The 3 peat lakers I'll give you I didn't consider a very deep team but that being said did their role players not step up to help them win those championships? As for the two peat lakers, how were they not deep? They had like 8 guys in the rotation. Spurs? I'm surprised you even brought them up, I'm not even going to get into it with them as they don't even need an argument lol. Greg Popvich takes dirt players, gives them a role and suddenly his team is deep.
When I was questioning the use of the term "brainwashed", I was referring to the fact that my particular views on what's important to building a contender are not in any way, shape or form based on the results of the last season. Hence the reference to the past 20 years - we could go back farther, if you insist.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:21 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I guess I can't stop people from dreaming - and neither should I even try.

Please, wake me up when Toronto Raptors become a perennial contender (see, not even win it all, just legitimately contend by, say, reaching Conference Finals) without having a super-star (or, more likely, two).

Depth is important. But super-stars more so. Much more so.
I don;t think anybody said that depth alone can take you anywhere close to a title. It does happen occasionally, but it's rather the exception than the rule.

This current Raptors cycle was doomed last season when we chose not to go for the #1 pick with all we got. Because of that, our chances of getting a superstar are almost nil (basically either JV becomes a top 10 player or we're not having one).

That being said, with the right moves, we could build a team like Detroit that is competitive season after season and occasionally can even get close to a title in the right circumstances (a season where the top teams are derailed by internal struggles or injuries or whatever).

I've already made my peace with this - and I'm not that upset either. A perennial 50 wins team is something we never had and it would keep us happy at least for 2-3 seasons until we get used to it and start wanting more.

And going back to depth, for both good and bad teams depth is important. Deep teams are never out of the playoff race at the very least, and winning a title without depth is very tough, just as unlikely as winning a title without a bunch of superstars.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:27 PM   #43 (permalink)
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depth is amazing on a winning team, shitty on a losing team. if we're in for another long season, our depth will be what kills the moral of this team. we have too many players in and around the same skill level at multiple positions, so it'll be hard to establish those certain roles the winning teams would be able to do with relative ease.
I think what you mean is that teams with a lot of players of similar value can get derailed by internal struggles when things aren't going to well. That's not the same as depth though - in my opinion, a team with depth is almost always likely to be perceived as overachieving, because depth is not visible to the average fan who tends to look at the top, so those teams are generally underrated.

So a deep team is unlikely to be a losing team (and losing is a relative team here, if the bobcats finish 40-42, they would be a losing team but they would be ecstatic ...). And when things are going well, people will stay in line and won't complain too much about their roles, less they are perceived as troublemakers. This is especially true when you have a hard-nosed experienced coach who won't take nonsense from anybody.
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:29 PM   #44 (permalink)
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I think Toronto has good players internally, perhaps less than normal squabbling...except Ed. I can see Ed being an angry sort....also, where the hell is Kleiza?
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:39 PM   #45 (permalink)
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I think Toronto has good players internally, perhaps less than normal squabbling...except Ed. I can see Ed being an angry sort....also, where the hell is Kleiza?
An angry sort? You don't know anything about Ed, what exactly are you basing that off of?
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Old 10-23-2012, 01:47 PM   #46 (permalink)
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I've met Ed. Can I base it off that?
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Old 10-23-2012, 04:06 PM   #47 (permalink)
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I think what you mean is that teams with a lot of players of similar value can get derailed by internal struggles when things aren't going to well. That's not the same as depth though - in my opinion, a team with depth is almost always likely to be perceived as overachieving, because depth is not visible to the average fan who tends to look at the top, so those teams are generally underrated.

So a deep team is unlikely to be a losing team (and losing is a relative team here, if the bobcats finish 40-42, they would be a losing team but they would be ecstatic ...). And when things are going well, people will stay in line and won't complain too much about their roles, less they are perceived as troublemakers. This is especially true when you have a hard-nosed experienced coach who won't take nonsense from anybody.
i don't think anything you wrote there has to do with depth or what i'm taking about. depth has nothing to do with overachieving. it's not a thought, a feeling or how an average nba fan perceives us, it's just having capable rotational players outside of the starting line-up. it's something that simple.

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I think what you mean is that teams with a lot of players of similar value can get derailed by internal struggles when things aren't going to well.
i agree with that, but i don't agree with that not having to do with depth, let alone the Raptors depth since that is what the article was referring to.

looking at our players, like mentioned, they seem to have a good show of character. the one difference between this year and last is that this season will have higher expectations, tighter rotations and more skilled players on the roster. for some players, something will have to give, and for some of those players, they're not going to enjoy having DNP's (kleiza/davis/amir/ross) or not being out of the court long enough to merit their worth to the team. people will be quite about it when they're winning, but they won't when they see their counterparts and competition struggling out on the court.

a hard nosed coach won't keep things in check as much as you'd think. they'd just the quicker at benching and disciplining them, which in turn means more media involvement and the value of the players decreasing.
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Old 10-23-2012, 04:14 PM   #48 (permalink)
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I've met Ed. Can I base it off that?

Lol

What, did you see him at Real Sports Bar and Grill or something?

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Old 10-23-2012, 04:17 PM   #49 (permalink)
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It's not even just about guys sitting on the bench. Without a good sense of roles among the guys on the court you will inevitably see one or two or more trying to do too much. And that becomes contagious as everyone takes their shot at moving up in the order and setting themselves apart. Instead of players making each other better and more successful within a tighter rotation, you get a bunch of players from top to bottom playing on an island and developing little chemistry or trust.

The competition is great, and the overall depth is potential great, but first and foremost they need to get a good sense of clarity of which players make this team go, and then how the depth can be used to build upon that. Lowry and Valančiūnas offer the chance to achieve that. I think they still need one more solid upgrade in talent to instil a team identity that can be relied upon fully, but they should be able to get a ways there as is, and they need to in order to avoid any further muddling of what kinds of players need to go and what kind need to be added.
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Old 10-23-2012, 04:18 PM   #50 (permalink)
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yep, and he was cranky there too. You get a sense of a man when you shake his hand and say hello. That, and a few other things just lead me to believe he's angry.

Nuthin wrong with angry.
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Old 10-23-2012, 04:21 PM   #51 (permalink)
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You did that shit where you tried to squeeze the shit out of his hand to make an impression didn't you?
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Old 10-23-2012, 04:24 PM   #52 (permalink)
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hahahaha no.
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Old 10-23-2012, 04:53 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MikeToronto View Post
I guess I can't stop people from dreaming - and neither should I even try.

Please, wake me up when Toronto Raptors become a perennial contender (see, not even win it all, just legitimately contend by, say, reaching Conference Finals) without having a super-star (or, more likely, two).

Depth is important. But super-stars more so. Much more so.
So what's the answer then Mike? Should we all just stop watching and supporting the team until they land that once in a generation player?

You have to crawl before you can walk... and walk before you can run.

YES, we'd all love to have a Lebron-type talent here but until that happens shouldn't the team do it's best to field the best team possible?
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:25 PM   #54 (permalink)
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So what's the answer then Mike? Should we all just stop watching and supporting the team until they land that once in a generation player?

You have to crawl before you can walk... and walk before you can run.

YES, we'd all love to have a Lebron-type talent here but until that happens shouldn't the team do it's best to field the best team possible?
For the 1000th time - sure, field the best team you can. Enjoy them competing and such. Just don't expect the hardware, like, ever, ok?

IMHO, the only way to reach for the stars in this league (unless you are LA or NY) is to suck so much for so long that you finally get lucky enough to draft 1 or two super-talented players. Of course, you'd then have to develop them, surround them with vet talent, manage to keep them - but those are the problems of the "second kind". Without having those stars, you are not winning the title.

Now, back to enjoying the improved team that we have today.
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:19 PM   #55 (permalink)
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For the 1000th time - sure, field the best team you can. Enjoy them competing and such. Just don't expect the hardware, like, ever, ok?

IMHO, the only way to reach for the stars in this league (unless you are LA or NY) is to suck so much for so long that you finally get lucky enough to draft 1 or two super-talented players. Of course, you'd then have to develop them, surround them with vet talent, manage to keep them - but those are the problems of the "second kind". Without having those stars, you are not winning the title.

Now, back to enjoying the improved team that we have today.
We had those players.... they didn't want to be here. At least not enough to, you know... stay... when given the option.
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:03 PM   #56 (permalink)
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We had those players.... they didn't want to be here. At least not enough to, you know... stay... when given the option.
No, we didn't, the closest was Vince, but he was never a top 3 player in the league, probably not even top 5.
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:08 PM   #57 (permalink)
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No, we didn't, the closest was Vince, but he was never a top 3 player in the league, probably not even top 5.
I am not asking for top 3 or top 5 - by the common-sense logic, allowing for equal talent distribution, we should have at least one top-30 player and at least another one within 31-60 range.

Yep, had we somehow managed to retain Carter and McGrady, that would have made us contenders for a while, that's for sure. Didn't work out, for various reasons, but doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried again, with perhaps better management, better ownership and less of a stigmata around the league.
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:11 PM   #58 (permalink)
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No, we didn't, the closest was Vince, but he was never a top 3 player in the league, probably not even top 5.
I don't know, but at one point Vince was pretty close to, if not, a top 5 player.
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Old 10-23-2012, 11:12 PM   #59 (permalink)
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We used to have flexibility, now we have depth. Gotta hold onto something.
If we didn't let JJ go and signed three times inferior Fields, I'd be still ok though.
We'll have to outwork teams to win games. I don't see it happening 40 times.
That's why I always believed trading AB might make us meaner, with more continuity of effort. We'd have nothing to fall back on. We could be like Philly. Anyway it's too late for that now.
I believe that Demar will make a big leap this season. That'll keep me watching.
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Old 10-23-2012, 11:14 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Coach K just said Chris Bosh is the best player in the world at guarding the opposing big on a pick and roll.

Coach K = The greatest coach in basketball

Pick and Roll = the most frequently used play in NBA basketball

Therefore;

Chris Bosh = The best defensive big man in the NBA
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