Wilson Chandler back from China, flies to Toronto - Page 29
Old 02-29-2012, 08:48 AM   #561 (permalink)
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Toronto has balked at Chandler’s asking price


Now that's a pretty big matza ball, but overall, great news
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:55 AM   #562 (permalink)
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Strong team without a super-star will get you to the conference semi-finals. Been there, done that. If you want a team that is a perennial top four and has a good chance at the title in Toronto, you have to suffer through the lean years until you get that super-star.

Everything else is rhetoric or self-delusion.
I don't believe that.

A lot of teams shoot themselves in the foot over & over again by handing out horrible contracts to sub-par players and drafting like buffoons.

The Spurs got lucky when they landed Duncan, yes.. but they made their own luck too when they drafted guys like Parker and Manu and Blair and brought in guys like S. Jax and Kerr and Bowen.

I still look back and wonder what our team could have done with a frontcourt of Chandler/Bosh/Marion for a complete season....

THE most important thing (IMO) is to make sure that your organization knows how to find "hidden talent" whether it be by draft or Free Agency. You do that and you accumulate assets that can sometimes be dealt for a real star.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:10 AM   #563 (permalink)
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We're not getting Chandler

HoopsHype - Toronto Raptors Rumors
Well, now, who would have seen this coming several days ago?

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Have to admit, this doesn't bother me. If this fell through, I imagine it was because the price was too high for Colangelo. Otherwise I'm sure he would have gotten it done. This was only a good move if it came at a reasonable cost.
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It was noted when the letter did not arrive that Chandler and his agent were optimistic they would have the letter sometime this week, hopefully in time for March 1st. So if the parties involved have given up, either they have more information than us or negotiations hit a wall. This far away from March 1st, I expect the latter.


Cue the announcement that Chandler has signed with the Raps, making me look quite the fool.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:33 AM   #564 (permalink)
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I have no idea what franchise-level guy means. That's just gibberish. I can name some great basketball players that might have amounted to merely being good. That's pretty easy, although it is a bit of an imaginative exercise. Manu Ginobili. Tony Parker. Dennis Rodman. Joe Dumars. Reggie Miller. Mark Jackson. Karl Malone. Stockton. Iguodala might be on his way suddenly. It goes on and on. Pick any great and imagine him on a weak team. Poor franchises can drag down talent, perhaps more than a singular talent can raise a franchise.

It's really easy to see a lot of really good players that never got a sniff of greatness while not being able to be a part of a strong, well-balanced team with excellent role development. There's more to the game than just getting the next MJ. You're mentioning of Atlanta as a team not to be modelled after lends itself to my way of thinking. They suffer continuously for not working well together and looking for one guy to carry them too much.
You know a franchise player when you see one. If you wish to re-phrase - a top layer star in the league, the only type of a player worthy of max money, etc.

Your list is formidable, to be sure. Interestingly, and probably intentionally, it consists of very-good-to-great players who either won the titles or at least played in the Finals. That's what I'd like Raptors to achieve one day, at the very least. If we go down your list:

- Manu and Tony won their titles because of the presence of Duncan;
- ditto for Dumars (Thomas) and Rodman (Thomas/Jordan);
- Reggie has gone to the Finals once only, and that's a pity because he's never been paired with another star. Still, an achievement;
- Stockton and Malone were spectacular together and if it weren't for Jordan, would have won at least one title. Again, has a good chance.

Look, I love team play and I would really love a strong team here. But, unless this team has at least one superstar at its core, it stands next to no chance of even winning the conference, let alone the title.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:58 AM   #565 (permalink)
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mike

i am out today, but will take this up with you via pm later. for the record, and so you don't label me as something i am not, i have never given you an infraction or done anything to abuse my so-called authority with you. we debate often because we have different opinions. but don't go thinking that you are innocent of being abrasive. you have a known history of being defensive, you don't hesitate to make arguments personal, and you tried to launch a campaign on another site to complain about this one. talk about pot and kettle.

you don't need to be talking to me, but you always do, because, like me, you enjoy arguing.


and back to the argument at hand, since you are talking about the wolves, i seem to remember that they tanked and drafted a superstar in kg, and then languished in mediocrity with him for years until being forced to trade him. this is not an issue as simple as waiting around for a star.
<offtopic>


I am responding to this in public only because you chose to touch on some issues important to me in your last response. The rest of the discussion, if it's needed, shall be carried on in private.

1. I did not accuse you (or anyone else here, for that matter) of abusing the authority. I simply commented on your increased abrasiveness in discussions and speculated that it might be attributed to the fact that you've become part of the moderating team. I have read you and argued with you on various forums over the years and, to me, the changes in your style are apparent and chronologically appear to correspond to the changes in your role. If you feel different - so be it.

2. Benzo (and somewhat Doc) are still around - talk to them about the "running to the other site" incident to get more information. To recap - I have been blocked out of this site with no warnings, explanations or just cause. The only way to protest left to me was to go to another forum I knew is still visited by the people I wanted to communicate with and complain - and then the nature of complaints was used as the justification for the ban. Noone has ever gotten to the bottom of why I was locked out to begin with.

3. You've correctly used the word "defensive". I rarely, if ever, stoop down to personal attacks, and when I do, I do it as a measured response to something I consider offensive. My recent incident with Thug, my reaction to the word "ridicule" - there is a pattern there, wouldn't you agree? If not - please, provide me with one single instance where I attacked anyone on a personal level without being attacked first.

</offtopic>

As for the Wolves - they went to the conference finals once. And I am not advocating following Cleveland and Wolves in not surrounding the franchise player with a strong enough cast. I am simply saying that a strong team without a franchise-level player won't even get you into the top four.

Last edited by MikeToronto; 02-29-2012 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 02-29-2012, 12:48 PM   #566 (permalink)
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The Detroit Pistons didn't have a franchise player. Yet they beat a team with 2 former franchise players and 2 franchise players at the time.

Regarding Indiana, they will be better than the Hawks (and currently are), they'll likely become the 3rd best team in the East next season (and as of today are actually 3rd in the east) with Orlando's dependency on Dwight and his inevitable departure, Boston's old core, the status quo that is Atlanta, the hysteria in NY. Philly doesn't have the flexibility that Indy has. NJN could beat out Indy IF they were to get Dwight but it seems as though DWILL and/or Dwight want to go to dallas.

Also, few could argue that Casey's system isn't a good one. With Bargs healthy this team was a 9th place team, possibly 8th.

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Old 02-29-2012, 12:59 PM   #567 (permalink)
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The Detroit Pistons didn't have a franchise player. Yet they beat a team with 2 former franchise players and 2 franchise players at the time.
Yep. The only exception that proves the rule. I've actually alluded to it in one of the recent posts on this thread:


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No player can win it by himself, true. But only two teams without a mega-star (or two) have ever won a championship, and Nowitzki was/is a border-line mega-star.
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Old 02-29-2012, 01:52 PM   #568 (permalink)
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He's a career 49 FG% shooter.
see, I don't get the point of comments like this. I love rondo and I would like to see him here, but you know as well as I and anybody that rondo can't shoot. His FGp is good because he gets to the rim, but teams leave him wide open and dare him to shoot because he's so bad at it.

and PGs who can't shoot decline very rapidly because once the quickness is gone, there's not much left. Rondo will always have value because of his D, but as a long term solution he comes with his share of risks.
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Old 02-29-2012, 02:03 PM   #569 (permalink)
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How about not signing other SF for the sake of signing other SF? How about using what we have, developing the existing talent (which, in JJ's case, is going quite nicely) while waiting for a chance to draft a franchise player?
hm, not sure one precludes the other. I would LOVE to see JJ and Chandler together on the wings with demar coming off the bench for instant offense. Pair those two with JV and a decent defensive PG and you have the best defense in the league, even with AB in the lineup. And a good offensive PG + AB + Chandler + JV would generate a ton of offense.

With Demar and Kleiza thriving off the bench against inferior competition, you could have a really good team.
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Old 02-29-2012, 02:08 PM   #570 (permalink)
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With Demar and Kleiza thriving off the bench against inferior competition, you could have a really good team.
Yes, we could. I am not arguing that. Would you call that team a title contender within, say 3-4 years?
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Old 02-29-2012, 02:26 PM   #571 (permalink)
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It's about taking steps, I personally want to see this team be like 2010/2011 Pacers (or better next year), why? It would mean the players we have are actually developing and are making a step.
didn't use to be this version of Indiana a few years back? Remember when we were winning 42+ games and getting kicked in the 1st round of the playoffs?
Did you like getting your ass kicked and knowing that you have no shot at getting better because you have no cap space and your draft position is lousy?

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There are few, if any guarantees in the draft.
there's the one guarantee that matters. Teams in undesirable markets will not win a title or even get close without striking major gold in the draft.
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Old 02-29-2012, 03:41 PM   #572 (permalink)
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lol, this team was never even close to Indiana's situation. After the Detroit brawl, they suffered, drafted well WITHOUT getting top picks, shed capspace like no tomorrow and they are looking good, I wouldn't be surprised to see them land Eric Gordon in the summer. Collison, George,Granger,D.West,Hibbert is better than Jose/TJ, AP, Joey G/Mo Pete/Jorge, CB4/Bargs, Nesterovic. This team did have depth in 06-07 which they relied on.

Obviously striking major gold helps in the draft, I will not argue that, if it were up to me I would or would try and greatly consider dealing most of the team at the deadline to get draft picks in this draft.

Why not trade the whole team and just have a team of rookies. To me, there are only 3 true contenders for the title, Miami, OKC and Chicago, it would be a surprise if any other team won. I am sure many other people feel the same, so, if there are only 3 true contenders for a title, every team should just say screw it, let's all tank, trade everyone of value for draft picks. What's the point right?

Also, let's say a franchise player goes down or gets a heavy injury which transforms them from game-changing talent to a rotation piece?

In addition, you think management, the team should just tell all their players,fans, etc, screw it, don't try to win at all, let's trade what we got to draft some kids, actually unless, we are top 4 in the conference, lose all other games, got to get that once in a lifetime player via draft, the fans won't mind going through a decade or more of waiting at a shot to get a decent player and surround them with nothing.

(I like balance in a lineup, that is why I like the bulls, 1 through 10 the best team in the league.)

Finally, young players will love coming to a losing environment
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Old 02-29-2012, 04:39 PM   #573 (permalink)
and a 1, and a 2, and a 1,2,3,4!

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He has turned out all right. Never been a franchise-level player, though. Never carried a team either.
Kidd has never been a franchise-level player? he was regarded as one of the biggest triple double threats to have ever played. If that's not franchise level, what is?
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Old 02-29-2012, 04:49 PM   #574 (permalink)
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Kidd has never been a franchise-level player? he was regarded as one of the biggest triple double threats to have ever played. If that's not franchise level, what is?
Throughout his career, Kidd has been a great passer and a great rebounder at his position. Never been enough of a scoring threat to be considered a franchise player, IMO, but close, very close.

I probably can't express this as a mathematical formula, but take it as a level of dominating his own position on the floor in all respects while also making the teammates better.
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Old 02-29-2012, 04:53 PM   #575 (permalink)
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Kidd has never been a franchise-level player? he was regarded as one of the biggest triple double threats to have ever played. If that's not franchise level, what is?
First ballot HOF
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Old 02-29-2012, 05:06 PM   #576 (permalink)
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OK, on the second/third thought, I might have been wrong about Kidd. Blame the new, awesome generation of PGs for raising the standard for the position, I guess.
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Old 02-29-2012, 05:07 PM   #577 (permalink)
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Lol, doesnt Kidd have the most triple doubles ever?
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Old 02-29-2012, 05:11 PM   #578 (permalink)
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Lol, doesnt Kidd have the most triple doubles ever?
I am pretty sure he is still behind the Big O and Magic.
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Old 02-29-2012, 05:12 PM   #579 (permalink)
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I am pretty sure he is still behind the Big O and Magic.
Def, for a small PG though, thats beastly.
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Old 02-29-2012, 05:16 PM   #580 (permalink)
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I am pretty sure he is still behind the Big O and Magic.
Robertson- 181
Magic- 138
Kidd- 107
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