Wilson Chandler back from China, flies to Toronto - Page 12
Old 02-24-2012, 03:32 PM   #221 (permalink)
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Snooch, at this point we are so far apart we might as well live on different planets.

In my world, we don't need Chandler. We need to do something drastic with the back court this off-season as our biggest issues are with backup PG and both starting and backup SG. I'd hold onto my assets unless a great deal came along until I know whom I draft and then deploy the rest accordingly to cover the rest of the holes.
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Old 02-24-2012, 03:35 PM   #222 (permalink)
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we don't have a starting calibre 1, 2 or 3 (or 5). upgrading any of them to a guy of chandler's talent on both ends of the floor would be a huge upgrade. we are a team full of backups as things stand currently.
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Old 02-24-2012, 03:37 PM   #223 (permalink)
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we don't have a starting calibre 1, 2 or 3 (or 5). upgrading any of them to a guy of chandler's talent on both ends of the floor would be a huge upgrade. we are a team full of backups as things stand currently.
OMG, I am going to regret this...

Calderon is not a starting caliber point guard?
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Old 02-24-2012, 03:38 PM   #224 (permalink)
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hell no he isn't

edit - at least not until we have significant defensive upgrades at several positions as well as another penetrating guard.
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Old 02-24-2012, 03:41 PM   #225 (permalink)
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Well, you do realize that cap and tax thresholds represent finite amounts of money, right? As such, any move is necessarily a part of a larger blueprint, if nothing else because every dollar spent somewhere limits your ability to spend it elsewhere, effectively.

Chandler, in all likelihood, is not worth 8 mil/season to begin with, not under the new CBA. For Raptors specifically, with Kleiza and JJ both under very reasonable and affordable contracts, with holes in the backcourt and with a good chance of drafting another three-man with a high lottery pick, I'd consider such signing harmful to the "overall blueprint" precisely because it impedes the team's ability to do "a pretty big overhaul with many moves yet to be made".
It is possible to free up cap space, moreso now than with the previous CBA. You can fret and recognize limitations all you like. I hope, and I emphasize hope, that a whole range of options are in the offing, properly prioritized and with fallbacks, which include the cheaper side of gaining potential assets through extra picks, shedding some contractual obligations through trades, maybe using the amnesty.

Are Kleiza and JJ who they really want, or are they just options that are conveniently affordable? If they are just affordable, then that's not what I would call following a blueprint. They need to target specific individuals. If they are serious about this guy then I would guess that means they are less serious about the draft prospects at that position, and that Kleiza and/or JJ are more valuable in terms of possible trades.

There is no surefire definable core with this team as I see it. That really needs to be firmed up, and I'm very interested to see how that comes together. It surely means that some good, and maybe even affordable pieces are outward bound. That's how it works. Successful teams make deals that help them acquire the players they have targeted, and don't get all worried about having to give up something good to do so, as long as there is a plan in place to maintain a certain level of flexibility throughout the process, and this potential signing on its own is hardly enough to make me think that they are handcuffing themselves needlessly. Let's see what happens next.

Last edited by LX; 02-24-2012 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 02-24-2012, 03:45 PM   #226 (permalink)
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hell no he isn't

edit - at least not until we have significant defensive upgrades at several positions as well as another penetrating guard.
Third in assists, first in assists/turnover ratio, Casey talking about multiple teams calling about him, but still, not good enough for you?

Are you married?
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Old 02-24-2012, 03:51 PM   #227 (permalink)
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we don't have a starting calibre 1, 2 or 3 (or 5). upgrading any of them to a guy of chandler's talent on both ends of the floor would be a huge upgrade. we are a team full of backups as things stand currently.
+1 with the addendum that Jose is a starting calibre point guard, but not the point guard of the future for this team. He's hitting his peak now, a few years too early, so the only responsible thing to do is capitalize on his value through a trade.

---

As for why we would pay Chandler 8 million a year when we could pay JJ and Kleiza less than that combined is this: you can only have 5 guys on the floor at a time, and really the top 8 or 9 guys are what define your team. With a cap of almost 60 million, you can pay your top 8 players an average of 7.5 million - meaning that ideally Chandler would be the 3rd or 4th best player on the team. And you can't have two tweener SF/PF's in your top 8, it just doesn't make sense.

So, we can pay JJ and Kleiza 8 million combined to be two backups to the same position where we don't have a starter, or we can pay JJ and WC a combined 12 million to fulfill the SF role in its entirety (plus a little backup 2 and 4). Which seems like the better deal to you?
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Old 02-24-2012, 03:55 PM   #228 (permalink)
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It is possible to free up cap space, moreso now than with the previous CBA. You can fret and recognize limitations all you like. I hope, and I emphasize hope, that a whole range of options are in the offing, properly prioritized and with fallbacks, which include the cheaper side of gaining potential assets through extra picks, shedding some contractual obligations through trades, maybe using the amnesty.

Are Kleiza and JJ who they really want, or are they just options that are conveniently affordable? If they are just affordable, then that's not what I would call following a blueprint. They need to target specific individuals. If they are serious about this guy then I would guess that means they are less serious about the draft prospects at that position, and that Kleiza and/or JJ are more valuable in terms of possible trades.

There is no surefire definable core with this team as I see it. That really needs to be firmed up, and I'm very interested to see how that comes together. It surely means that some good, and maybe even affordable pieces are outward bound. That's how it works. Successful teams make deals that help them acquire the players they have targeted, and don't get all worried about having to give up something good to do so, as long as there is a plan in place to maintain a certain level of flexibility throughout the process, and this potential signing on its own is hardly enough to make me think that they are handcuffing themselves needlessly. Let's see what happens next.
I will comment on one thought only - to form (or firm up) the core, you need a sure-fire core pieces. We have Bargs, if that. I hope Jonas is another one. That's it.

Chandler is not a core piece.
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Old 02-24-2012, 03:58 PM   #229 (permalink)
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So, we can pay JJ and Kleiza 8 million combined to be two backups to the same position where we don't have a starter, or we can pay JJ and WC a combined 12 million to fulfill the SF role in its entirety (plus a little backup 2 and 4). Which seems like the better deal to you?
JJ as a starter seems to be a better deal for me. Unlike Kleiza, who is an undersized power player, JJ is a natural SF and by next season will be a much cheaper version of Chandler, if not a better player, given minutes. Book it.
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Old 02-24-2012, 04:04 PM   #230 (permalink)
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we don't have a starting calibre 1, 2 or 3 (or 5). upgrading any of them to a guy of chandler's talent on both ends of the floor would be a huge upgrade. we are a team full of backups as things stand currently.
echo this
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Old 02-24-2012, 04:11 PM   #231 (permalink)
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I will comment on one thought only - to form (or firm up) the core, you need a sure-fire core pieces. We have Bargs, if that. I hope Jonas is another one. That's it.

Chandler is not a core piece.
Chandler could be a piece that helps define the core. We're coming off a couple seasons of terribly defined roles that amounted to a mish mash that doesn't gel. Chandler could easily be a glue guy.

I think Jonas should be one piece. Maybe Bargs, although he's only really had a handful of games where he looks like a verifiable starter himself, and it's not out of the realm of possibility that the right core might not include him. As for what pieces - again - let's see what happens next.
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Old 02-24-2012, 04:14 PM   #232 (permalink)
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+1 with the addendum that Jose is a starting calibre point guard, but not the point guard of the future for this team. He's hitting his peak now, a few years too early, so the only responsible thing to do is capitalize on his value through a trade.

---



So, we can pay JJ and Kleiza 8 million combined to be two backups to the same position where we don't have a starter, or we can pay JJ and WC a combined 12 million to fulfill the SF role in its entirety (plus a little backup 2 and 4). Which seems like the better deal to you?
good point...for me this is a upgrade in our SF position which shouldn't be jeopardise by the draft
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Old 02-24-2012, 04:34 PM   #233 (permalink)
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+1 with the addendum that Jose is a starting calibre point guard, but not the point guard of the future for this team. He's hitting his peak now, a few years too early, so the only responsible thing to do is capitalize on his value through a trade.
I agree with this....

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JJ as a starter seems to be a better deal for me. Unlike Kleiza, who is an undersized power player, JJ is a natural SF and by next season will be a much cheaper version of Chandler, if not a better player, given minutes. Book it.
... but I also agree with this.
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Old 02-24-2012, 04:40 PM   #234 (permalink)
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I'd rather take my chances on JJ and kleiza and try to spend the money on getting a PG, PGs are more of a game changer the way the game is played these days
especially if we think Bargs and jonas are the future at the big positions and demar at 1 of the wings
i'd rather upgrade at the PG who can help the rest of the guys on the court and let JJ improve his game, wilson is not much of an upgrade, if JJ is like a 5 or 6 out of 10, then wilson is like a 6 or 7 out of 10, not much of an upgrade
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Old 02-24-2012, 04:52 PM   #235 (permalink)
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I'd rather take my chances on JJ and kleiza and try to spend the money on getting a PG, PGs are more of a game changer the way the game is played these days
especially if we think Bargs and jonas are the future at the big positions and demar at 1 of the wings
i'd rather upgrade at the PG who can help the rest of the guys on the court and let JJ improve his game, wilson is not much of an upgrade, if JJ is like a 5 or 6 out of 10, then wilson is like a 6 or 7 out of 10, not much of an upgrade
Name me a PG you want to target realistically in free agency, and then this discussion is more relevant. I personally think that our PG will be found through trade (or possibly the draft). There just aren't a lot of PG's out there that are coming up to free agency that just cap space will be enough to pry them away from where they are now.
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Old 02-24-2012, 05:09 PM   #236 (permalink)
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Name me a PG you want to target realistically in free agency, and then this discussion is more relevant. I personally think that our PG will be found through trade (or possibly the draft). There just aren't a lot of PG's out there that are coming up to free agency that just cap space will be enough to pry them away from where they are now.

Unless you sign someone like Raymond Felton our PG will have to be aquired through trade. There just isn't much in the way of PG's on the market this summer.
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Old 02-24-2012, 05:11 PM   #237 (permalink)
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Unless you sign someone like Raymond Felton our PG will have to be aquired through trade. There just isn't much in the way of PG's on the market this summer.
Exactly my point. Our weaknesses are at PG, SF, and SG if you think DD has plateaued (I don't - he may be a solid 4th or 5th starter yet). Filling any one of those starting holes is a useful step forward, and Chandler seems like the best bet for now - there are of course other players out there to target, but none that seem as likely to come here.
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Old 02-24-2012, 05:14 PM   #238 (permalink)
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Exactly my point. Our weaknesses are at PG, SF, and SG if you think DD has plateaued (I don't - he may be a solid 4th or 5th starter yet). Filling any one of those starting holes is a useful step forward, and Chandler seems like the best bet for now - there are of course other players out there to target, but none that seem as likely to come here.
The two players that I want for the SF spot are Batum first and Chandler second. I'll take either of them and be happy.
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Old 02-24-2012, 05:30 PM   #239 (permalink)
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The two players that I want for the SF spot are Batum first and Chandler second. I'll take either of them and be happy.
Batum would be the dream - he complements Demar and JJ better than WC, but Batum a) doesn't like TO because we screwed up the draft for him and b) is more likely to be hard to get away from Portland compared to getting Chandler away from Denver.
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Old 02-24-2012, 05:35 PM   #240 (permalink)
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Batum would be the dream - he complements Demar and JJ better than WC, but Batum a) doesn't like TO because we screwed up the draft for him and b) is more likely to be hard to get away from Portland compared to getting Chandler away from Denver.
How did we manage to screw up 2008 draft for Batum? We didn't even have a first rounder - O'Neal trade...
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