Why are you against tanking? - Page 3

Go Back   Raptors Forum | Toronto Raptors Forums & Message Boards > NBA Discussion > Toronto Raptors

View Poll Results: I am against tanking because
it's not right 7 30.43%
it's not going to work this season 16 69.57%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-26-2013, 11:56 AM   #41 (permalink)
We going to the 'ship!

Senior Member

 
Ball Don't Lie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,865
Representing:
Default

Quote:
I am against tanking because I am a Raptors fan.
What does this even mean?
Ball Don't Lie is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 12:44 PM   #42 (permalink)
La Decima!!!!!

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 7,223
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball Don't Lie View Post
What does this even mean?
I was thinking the same thing.
LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 01:39 PM   #43 (permalink)
payin Dwyane Wade

Senior Member
 
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4,533
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! View Post
Different post as there is no link or mention of it in the post I quoted.

Um, you mention Detroit. Detroit was able to sign guys because they had the necessary capspace to do it - not because of their current or previous state of affairs.

Oh you can make deals to get better - but will those deals be made - how major/minor?

We're not the Jays of 92-93. Unless you see greatness in any1 on the current roster.

That's the issue. Raps are doing ok in a s**t season. 1 game below .500 and somehow close to being a contender? The EC is like that this season and maybe next too but what happens after that? Things do change.

Have to be all in one way or the other and currently it looks like it is neither for the raps. Some may say that's patience but others may say it is a lack of planning going forward.
Where did I say close to a contender? Come on. I said closer to contending than closer to being garbage is all.

I used the Jays as example about building a team because its easy for Toronto people to understand and its because the argument from the tank crowd is that no player worth anything will ever sign in Canada. And that's just not true. And I mentioned Detroit because its a shit hole and players will still go there. We will not be forever without cap space. You missed the point.

The deals required to get better would be required if we tanked and had to later improve or if we are in the spot we are in and have to improve. It takes a good GM either way, but it can still be done. Nothing changes there.

On another note, as for the article form freakonomics being garbage... only to someone so fixed in their position they can't even take it for what it is.

What I find hilarious is where was the tank crowd at the beginning of the seasons for the last 4 years when it did make sense. All drinking the koolaid that we were good like everyone else.

Last edited by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu; 11-26-2013 at 01:43 PM.
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 02:08 PM   #44 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,389
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriz View Post
Also nobody considered that potential super star players hardly ever stays with the first team that thet get drafted by..
actually, I think there was only one example in the last 20 years of a player who didn't extend with the team that drafted him. With the new rules, it's even less likely a player offered a franchise-level extension would turn it down. We'd have at least 7 years to build a team around him.
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 02:11 PM   #45 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,389
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH View Post
Don't waste your time clicking the link. It's a BS study - it makes no distinction between tanking teams (teams with a direction, that choose to target draft picks and trade current value for future value) and terribly managed teams, who just fall backwards into a good pick because their GM is Kahn or some other schmuck.

And even that aside - he sets a terrible criterion for success. A 5 year window is his criterion - how often does a tanking team achieve success 5 years after tanking? Considering teams have control over the player they tanked for for about 8 years, that's a ridiculous window to use. This means that successful tanking teams end up counted in the "mediocre" data, since their progression from terrible to great takes 6 or 7 years - with a stop at mediocrity (win-wise) a couple years in.
yeah, I know - I've read it the first time it was posted. That was what I was trying to explain in my post, obviously given the amount of bad and badly managed teams, looking at things in vacuum like that would show that most bad teams stay bad - you don't need a study for that ...

However, when you look at the good teams and see what they did to become good,you see most had their best player or at least second best player drafted, usually top 5. Even Miami, Boston or Lakers fall in that category (although pierce/kobe were drafted later and in bryant's case, not formally by the lakers). Also, our own two best teams were built around Carter (4th) and Bosh (4th).
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 02:14 PM   #46 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,389
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu View Post
Not if you read the link it isn't.

Tanking doesn't work. Its not 100 or even 50% successful. What champ team came from that? Everyone assumes tank = win later and its just not true. Its not 3-5 years by tanking to get to winning it might be 10 years or 15 depending on luck. At least if you build a winning culture, players will be attracted to it. You cannot deny that when our dollar was worth garbage, and things in Canada were not as good as the US, a team that had success could sign talent to Canada in the Blue Jays. The best joined them because they wanted to win. The same would happen in basketball as it does now.

We have a 500 team. We are as close to contending as being a bottom feeder.

And if people think that there is no way to move upward from a .500 team, there's nothing anyone can do to help anyone see that its possible. And that's the difference I see on this forum, most people don't believe that trades and free agents signings (small ones even) can work and see it as a treadmill. Except that trades and signings DO help good teams get better. Maybe too long of BC and his predecessors.

And for the anti-tank crowd, we can't see the value of ripping this down for 1 year of a draft. So we rip it all down just to have a shot this year? Because after this year you have to admit the lottery is a bigger crap shoot (e.g. Bennett, Bargs, Oden) and its never a guarantee.

And, winning builds winning. This team needs to stop being the laughing stock of the NBA before it can take a step forward. Even Detroit can sign players. And if you've ever been to Detroit (or the burbs) you would pick Toronto first. We stay a laughing stock and tank and we may find good talent only to see it leave ASAP because this team has never tried to win.

I think this team is better than most people here do. Maybe its different and IF I did think we were a bottom 10 team, I might think we should tank too. But we're not that bad. But... until that's proven by probably 20 more games, the tank crowd will roll on and so will the anti-tank.

Because tanking also requires a strategy. We are VERY late to the game if we want in. With the teams ahead of us in the tanking game, its pretty impossible to unload 40 million in Salary in Gay DD and Lowry and expect nothing back and that we won't still win at a better rate than the crappiest teams. If you wanted to tank hard you would take Amare or the Nets garbage but... they have no picks, so that doesn't work. So it doesn't work. Almost every other team (except maybe the Lakers) amnestied off their garbage contacts last year. On top of it all, tanking just aint as easy either. We can't just Lay these guys off! We have to take players back. If this was screamed about before Boston did it and raped the nets...I might have thought different but its late.
ok, then don't all it tanking, call it drafting your best player and build around him using only good contracts if that makes you feel better. Are you still saying that's a bad strategy.

In our case, that would imply keeping JV/Ross and maybe demar and build around them. First we'd have to get rid of all the bad contracts any way we can (short of selling picks of course).
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 02:23 PM   #47 (permalink)
La Decima!!!!!

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 7,223
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu View Post
Where did I say close to a contender? Come on. I said closer to contending than closer to being garbage is all.

I used the Jays as example about building a team because its easy for Toronto people to understand and its because the argument from the tank crowd is that no player worth anything will ever sign in Canada. And that's just not true. And I mentioned Detroit because its a shit hole and players will still go there. We will not be forever without cap space. You missed the point.

The deals required to get better would be required if we tanked and had to later improve or if we are in the spot we are in and have to improve. It takes

a good GM either way, but it can still be done. Nothing changes there.

On another note, as for the article form freakonomics being garbage... only to someone so fixed in their position they can't even take it for what it is.

What I find hilarious is where was the tank crowd at the beginning of the seasons for the last 4 years when it did make sense. All drinking the koolaid that we were good like everyone else.
Exactly, closer to a contender than crap.

Anywho MLB doesn't equal NBA. You need the required capspace and something there - ie. up and coming players - like Indy who had up+comers on rookie contracts when they signed D.West, also, they offered him a nice chunk of change.

I didn't read that article and it wasn't posted in the post I quoted so I don't know why you are so worked up about me and said article. kind of bizarre. it isn't my duty to read it. again, very strange that you are fixated on me and this article.

what koolaid? in case you haven't noticed I haven't been on here forever. BC never did the one thing he should've done - taken on longer contracts for picks. instead we had to hear of the mythical "flexibility" that was apparently available while horrid FAs were signed. Also, I can't control what a horrid GM, franchise or coach does.
LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 03:16 PM   #48 (permalink)
believin' in Masai.

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 601
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by just4_raps View Post
indiana doesn't have a top 10 pick player outisde of Paul George (picked 10th).

organic growth.

Amen.
So, let's stop think tanking nonsense.

Other teams that have "tanked" still aren't top of the league. Portland had legitimate top draft picks who got injured and wallowed in the shit pan for a couple years. It's all luck.

Can we just play basketball? Let's develop a winning culture. Let's develop an identity that we can lure players with.
Owned is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 04:07 PM   #49 (permalink)
payin Dwyane Wade

Senior Member
 
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4,533
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
ok, then don't all it tanking, call it drafting your best player and build around him using only good contracts if that makes you feel better. Are you still saying that's a bad strategy.

In our case, that would imply keeping JV/Ross and maybe demar and build around them. First we'd have to get rid of all the bad contracts any way we can (short of selling picks of course).
No. But some people believe this means trading them for air or making the team as bad as possible while doing it. The only very bad contracts this team has is fields and gay. DD is not as bad as we think if there is demand for him. Lowry's is definitely not bad.

Last edited by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu; 11-26-2013 at 04:11 PM.
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 04:10 PM   #50 (permalink)
payin Dwyane Wade

Senior Member
 
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4,533
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! View Post
Exactly, closer to a contender than crap.

Anywho MLB doesn't equal NBA. You need the required capspace and something there - ie. up and coming players - like Indy who had up+comers on rookie contracts when they signed D.West, also, they offered him a nice chunk of change.

I didn't read that article and it wasn't posted in the post I quoted so I don't know why you are so worked up about me and said article. kind of bizarre. it isn't my duty to read it. again, very strange that you are fixated on me and this article.

what koolaid? in case you haven't noticed I haven't been on here forever. BC never did the one thing he should've done - taken on longer contracts for picks. instead we had to hear of the mythical "flexibility" that was apparently available while horrid FAs were signed. Also, I can't control what a horrid GM, franchise or coach does.
I know you didn't read it. did you even read this thread through to see the other post about it? Maybe I should have started the sentence off differently than "on another note"...

And as for the last paragraph, BCs koolaid, and eveyone here that was spinning it. And who the #$%^ expects you to control what they do?? Wat?

And in 2 years time we will have 5 players on rookie contracts and no Gay contract. Whats your point.

Last edited by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu; 11-26-2013 at 04:14 PM.
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 04:14 PM   #51 (permalink)
threes and free throws

Senior Member
 
Metallikid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,937
Representing:
Default

Barring a blockbuster deal or free agent jumping ship, does anyone think the other four teams in the Atlantic will be better than us next year? The year after?

I realize there's a lot of season to play still and expectations could change, but I think Brooklyn will have chronic problems until they blow it up; Melo can play out of his mind and the Knicks aren't going to get close to their overachieving last season; Boston might be halfway competitive if they get a legit starter this draft, and Philly won't be making the playoffs until our all-star game.

Admittedly, we also have a lot up in the air regarding Lowry and Gay, but providing we re-sign them and/or get some sort of commensurate return, I don't see why we can't have a couple straight years of playoffs. And maybe, if we can give a real team a run for their money, it will give our core some experience and confidence to build on, and possibly lure a great role-player (ala David West) into coming here.
Metallikid is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 04:18 PM   #52 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummomd so people stop whining

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 73,952
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metallikid View Post
Barring a blockbuster deal or free agent jumping ship, does anyone think the other four teams in the Atlantic will be better than us next year? The year after?

.
Honestly can anyone predict anything that far ahead. Brooklyn will dump salary and take another run.

I do think that there will be big opportunities in the next 18 months for us to upgrade the talent on this team. Which seems to be the plan anyway, considering in 18 months or so we'll be rebranding and going into the 20th anniversary/all-star season. With any luck it could be great timing for us. Then again, I hate to get my hopes up with this organization.
jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 04:23 PM   #53 (permalink)
If I ruled the world...

Sippin' On Myself
 
KoolAid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Yes
Posts: 3,624
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZanTheMan View Post
Carmelo, D. Howard, Shaq, Lebron, Pau, Stoudemire, Vince, C. Webb, Pierce, Ray Allen, Garnett, McGrady, Jason Kidd, Nash, Iverson, Deron Williams, I could go on as well.

All superstars that got traded or signed elsewhere. It's not just Lebron, it happens more often than you'd think. Stars outgrow the bad, small market teams that drafted them and move on to big cities or storied franchises. It's fairly common.

If a small market team like the Jazz get to draft Wiggins it's highly likely he's gone within 4 years. They haven't been able to hold on to their star players since Malone and Stockton. Deron Williams, Boozer, Kirilenko, Millsap, Al Jefferson, they're all gone.

There are many small market teams in the tank race: Milwaukee, Sacramento, Cleveland, Orlando. Not exactly teams you want to spend your whole career with.

And if Wiggins can change teams like that, any player in the upcoming draft can. So don't tell me when a player get's drafted he's locked up forever. That seldom happens.

Look up the list of former nr. 1 overall draft picks and see how many of them stayed with the team that drafted them. It's a small number.
Look at that list and tell me the vast majority didn't have their best years with the team that picked them. Team success and individually.
KoolAid is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 04:24 PM   #54 (permalink)
If I ruled the world...

Sippin' On Myself
 
KoolAid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Yes
Posts: 3,624
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ball Don't Lie View Post
What does this even mean?
It means he's become so accustomed to the mediocrity that he embraces it.
KoolAid is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 04:52 PM   #55 (permalink)
taking you to school

Senior Member
 
ZanTheMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,347
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoolAid View Post
Look at that list and tell me the vast majority didn't have their best years with the team that picked them. Team success and individually.
Honestly? No. It's not even 50-50 imho.
But all that is besides the point. The point is that (super)stars change teams more often than not.

Oh wait, you meant the list of former number 1 picks? I thought you meant my list of superstars that changed teams. Pardon me.

If Wiggins were to spend his first 4 years with the Jazz, and those would be his best years, he'd probably still be pretty damn good when he signs his new contract with us!

Last edited by ZanTheMan; 11-26-2013 at 05:00 PM.
ZanTheMan is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 04:54 PM   #56 (permalink)
threes and free throws

Senior Member
 
Metallikid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,937
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffb View Post
Honestly can anyone predict anything that far ahead. Brooklyn will dump salary and take another run.

I do think that there will be big opportunities in the next 18 months for us to upgrade the talent on this team. Which seems to be the plan anyway, considering in 18 months or so we'll be rebranding and going into the 20th anniversary/all-star season. With any luck it could be great timing for us. Then again, I hate to get my hopes up with this organization.
I was thinking the same thing. If they get anywhere near 4-19 they're going to sell wholesale, but who can say what they'll be able to buy? DWill and Lopez won't be traded so I think there's a cap on returns. By the way I hope to god they don't get rid of the red. I'd hate to have another blue team in Toronto.

Something no one mentioned after Bargs left was that he was the last Raptor to have been in the playoffs in a Raptors uniform. I wouldn't be surprised if DeRozan averaged 25ppg if he finally got a whiff of a seven-game series.
Metallikid is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 05:51 PM   #57 (permalink)
If I ruled the world...

Sippin' On Myself
 
KoolAid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Yes
Posts: 3,624
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZanTheMan View Post
Honestly? No. It's not even 50-50 imho.
But all that is besides the point. The point is that (super)stars change teams more often than not.
Oh wait, you meant the list of former number 1 picks? I thought you meant my list of superstars that changed teams. Pardon me.

If Wiggins were to spend his first 4 years with the Jazz, and those would be his best years, he'd probably still be pretty damn good when he signs his new contract with us!
It'd be at least 7 years unless Wiggins turns down a potential $100 mil+ contract and accepts his qualifying offer, to become a UFA the next year. I think his choice is clear.

Regardless, 99% of the time a star leaves its because he was on a bad team, which with MU I don't think will be the case, or they were in a small market, which we already know isn't correct.
KoolAid is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 06:35 PM   #58 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,389
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu View Post
No. But some people believe this means trading them for air or making the team as bad as possible while doing it. The only very bad contracts this team has is fields and gay. DD is not as bad as we think if there is demand for him. Lowry's is definitely not bad.
I think the two are nearly identical in our particular scenario. Lowry is expiring and gay is massively overpaid AND potentially expiring (and being his choice, he will opt out ONLY if he plays badly, so you get the worst of the two). So while I like MU's approach of not holding a firesale, I really, really doubt we'll get anything better than those two.

Of course, Lowry's contract is not bad, it's pretty great in fact - hopefully we can keep it that way after next year.

However, the main issue is that, by definition, it's nearly impossible to get good value in free agency, unless you sign a max free agent or get very lucky. For every good free agent, all it takes is one team to overpay for you to lose, so free agency is not going to be helpful even if we had cap space. Trades are an option, but we have so few tradeable assets.

And keep in mind, if you build an entire team of fair priced assets, you are not building a title contender, just a good playoff team. The reason being the elite teams all have huge value on their roster because they generally have 1-2 -players that far overweight their max salaries (lebron, KD etc), or even better, their rookie contracts (Indiana). We have neither, and no prospect of getting one anytime soon.

So ask yourself this question, how are we going to be able to top Miami or OKC's performance per dollar spent since free agency at best gives us fair market value, most of our players (amir and lowry excepted) are paid either market or above market and trades only give you above market returns if you can get a super elite guy, which is highly unlikely? That's why I think we need to shed not just the overpaid guys, but also the fair priced ones as well (rookies excepted). Otherwise we're just going to be building a solid team with a hard ceiling in the 2nd tier.
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 06:36 PM   #59 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,389
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZanTheMan View Post
Honestly? No. It's not even 50-50 imho.
But all that is besides the point. The point is that (super)stars change teams more often than not.

Oh wait, you meant the list of former number 1 picks? I thought you meant my list of superstars that changed teams. Pardon me.

If Wiggins were to spend his first 4 years with the Jazz, and those would be his best years, he'd probably still be pretty damn good when he signs his new contract with us!
let's first build a winner and then we'll deal with keeping it together ...
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 07:00 PM   #60 (permalink)
mixing all day and playing all day

Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Mississauga
Posts: 413
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZanTheMan View Post

If Wiggins were to spend his first 4 years with the Jazz, and those would be his best years, he'd probably still be pretty damn good when he signs his new contract with us!
I wouldnt mind that idea and my initial thought was that exactly. Get that dude some experience and get him when he is at his prime.



Bottom line for me is that I don't mind tanking if the Raptors organization is sure to have this team run like Lakers, Spurs, OKC, GW for the next 5-7+ years AND are able to keep the potential all star player within this team for good PLUS winning a Championship.

If that doesnt happen I can guarantee you that the high draft pick player will leave.

Tanking isnt a one button solution. There are so many things to consider and having results in the long run is one of them.

Last edited by Kriz; 11-26-2013 at 07:02 PM.
Kriz is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24