Why are you against tanking? - Page 2

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View Poll Results: I am against tanking because
it's not right 7 30.43%
it's not going to work this season 16 69.57%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-25-2013, 11:08 PM   #21 (permalink)
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um, yeah, in every thread really
it was a simple question, just trying to figure out if people don't want to tank because it's not the proper way to build, or because it doesn't work. I think it's a pretty important question that wasn't really asked before.

The reason being that, as the team's fortunes go, the crowd that is against tanking because it's not effective, it will probably reverse course, while those who truly believe tanking doesn't work period, should stick to their guns. It basically forces you to lay your cards on the table and show what you believe in.

I am pro-tanking this season precisely because I think it has the best chance to succeed given the quality of the draft. I don't believe tanking is the ONLY way and I definitely think there are times when it's not worth it (say last season for example).

I also think tanking is a horrible concept, but it's a rational one. It goes against sports and basically ruins the season for fans like me who believe it's the best way to win a title (vs winning every game you can). However, until the rules change, it's am acceptable tactic that's part of the game.

All teams make decisions that make sense long term, but result in losing games short term, even teams like SAS or Miami that rest players in certain games, trying to conserve them for the final - that's sacrificing short term wins for long term success as well. Tanking is the same thing applied to an entire season - you sacrifice now for tomorrow.
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Old 11-25-2013, 11:16 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I think Jeff was linking to a Wages of Wins article about how tanking doesn't work.

http://wagesofwins.com/2013/10/31/ar...-about-tanking
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Old 11-25-2013, 11:16 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
um, yeah, in every thread really
it was a simple question, just trying to figure out if people don't want to tank because it's not the proper way to build, or because it doesn't work. I think it's a pretty important question that wasn't really asked before.

The reason being that, as the team's fortunes go, the crowd that is against tanking because it's not effective, it will probably reverse course, while those who truly believe tanking doesn't work period, should stick to their guns. It basically forces you to lay your cards on the table and show what you believe in.

I am pro-tanking this season precisely because I think it has the best chance to succeed given the quality of the draft. I don't believe tanking is the ONLY way and I definitely think there are times when it's not worth it (say last season for example).

I also think tanking is a horrible concept, but it's a rational one. It goes against sports and basically ruins the season for fans like me who believe it's the best way to win a title (vs winning every game you can). However, until the rules change, it's am acceptable tactic that's part of the game.

All teams make decisions that make sense long term, but result in losing games short term, even teams like SAS or Miami that rest players in certain games, trying to conserve them for the final - that's sacrificing short term wins for long term success as well. Tanking is the same thing applied to an entire season - you sacrifice now for tomorrow.
Perfect post.
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Old 11-26-2013, 12:46 AM   #24 (permalink)
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I think Jeff was linking to a Wages of Wins article about how tanking doesn't work.

Are we really still talking about tanking?
sorry, my bad - too lazy to click the link, I thought he's talking about the endless threads on tanking

that article, which was posted in the past, shows that tanking may not work. I don't think there is any doubt that tanking does work. And I don't think any rational person claims that tanking is a foolproof method either. What I would argue is that teams in a position to tank are usually badly run, and in that case even getting lucky in the draft is not enough. Which is why bad teams tend to stay bad, even though they get draft picks. There are also a lot more bad than good teams ...

However, look at all the good teams in the past 5-10 years, eliminate the ones assembled through block buster trades (not an option for us) and see
a. how many got their best players through draft
b. how many of those players were drafted top 5

question b is not even all that relevant, because ultimately, even though you may find elite players later in the draft (like memphis and indiana), the odds are much higher you will get them if you draft early ...
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Old 11-26-2013, 12:58 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Also nobody considered that potential super star players hardly ever stays with the first team that thet get drafted by..
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Old 11-26-2013, 01:12 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Also nobody considered that potential super star players hardly ever stays with the first team that thet get drafted by..
Michael jordan? kevin durant? derrick rose? paul george? dwyane wade? larry bird? tim duncan? The list goes on. I don't buy it when people say superstar players always leave their team, that isn't the case at all. And if it was the case, it was most likely due to a bad situation. Just because lebron left everyone thinks everyone is going to leave. give me a break.
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Old 11-26-2013, 01:22 AM   #27 (permalink)
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You should still consider it. With the Spurs they just have a really good organization, counting in with Ginobli and Parker as well. The chances of making a team like the Spurs is almost impossible.

But the chances of players leaving is having bad organization and having a bad team.. and this happens often in the long run. Don't get surprised if Love , Paul G or Durant gets traded. Especially if expectations arent reached.

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Old 11-26-2013, 07:19 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Superstars leave when their team is managed poorly, I trust MU to make the team a contender after he has a star.
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Old 11-26-2013, 07:49 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Michael jordan? kevin durant? derrick rose? paul george? dwyane wade? larry bird? tim duncan? The list goes on. I don't buy it when people say superstar players always leave their team, that isn't the case at all. And if it was the case, it was most likely due to a bad situation. Just because lebron left everyone thinks everyone is going to leave. give me a break.
Carmelo, D. Howard, Shaq, Lebron, Pau, Stoudemire, Vince, C. Webb, Pierce, Ray Allen, Garnett, McGrady, Jason Kidd, Nash, Iverson, Deron Williams, I could go on as well.

All superstars that got traded or signed elsewhere. It's not just Lebron, it happens more often than you'd think. Stars outgrow the bad, small market teams that drafted them and move on to big cities or storied franchises. It's fairly common.

If a small market team like the Jazz get to draft Wiggins it's highly likely he's gone within 4 years. They haven't been able to hold on to their star players since Malone and Stockton. Deron Williams, Boozer, Kirilenko, Millsap, Al Jefferson, they're all gone.

There are many small market teams in the tank race: Milwaukee, Sacramento, Cleveland, Orlando. Not exactly teams you want to spend your whole career with.

And if Wiggins can change teams like that, any player in the upcoming draft can. So don't tell me when a player get's drafted he's locked up forever. That seldom happens.

Look up the list of former nr. 1 overall draft picks and see how many of them stayed with the team that drafted them. It's a small number.

Last edited by ZanTheMan; 11-26-2013 at 07:53 AM.
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:41 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
sorry, my bad - too lazy to click the link, I thought he's talking about the endless threads on tanking

that article, which was posted in the past, shows that tanking may not work. I don't think there is any doubt that tanking does work. And I don't think any rational person claims that tanking is a foolproof method either. What I would argue is that teams in a position to tank are usually badly run, and in that case even getting lucky in the draft is not enough. Which is why bad teams tend to stay bad, even though they get draft picks. There are also a lot more bad than good teams ...

However, look at all the good teams in the past 5-10 years, eliminate the ones assembled through block buster trades (not an option for us) and see
a. how many got their best players through draft
b. how many of those players were drafted top 5

question b is not even all that relevant, because ultimately, even though you may find elite players later in the draft (like memphis and indiana), the odds are much higher you will get them if you draft early ...
Don't waste your time clicking the link. It's a BS study - it makes no distinction between tanking teams (teams with a direction, that choose to target draft picks and trade current value for future value) and terribly managed teams, who just fall backwards into a good pick because their GM is Kahn or some other schmuck.

And even that aside - he sets a terrible criterion for success. A 5 year window is his criterion - how often does a tanking team achieve success 5 years after tanking? Considering teams have control over the player they tanked for for about 8 years, that's a ridiculous window to use. This means that successful tanking teams end up counted in the "mediocre" data, since their progression from terrible to great takes 6 or 7 years - with a stop at mediocrity (win-wise) a couple years in.
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:54 AM   #31 (permalink)
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I am against tanking because I am a Raptors fan.
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Old 11-26-2013, 08:59 AM   #32 (permalink)
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because the East sucks.. and this team is too good to tank
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Old 11-26-2013, 10:13 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! View Post
Perfect post.
Not if you read the link it isn't.

Tanking doesn't work. Its not 100 or even 50% successful. What champ team came from that? Everyone assumes tank = win later and its just not true. Its not 3-5 years by tanking to get to winning it might be 10 years or 15 depending on luck. At least if you build a winning culture, players will be attracted to it. You cannot deny that when our dollar was worth garbage, and things in Canada were not as good as the US, a team that had success could sign talent to Canada in the Blue Jays. The best joined them because they wanted to win. The same would happen in basketball as it does now.

We have a 500 team. We are as close to contending as being a bottom feeder.

And if people think that there is no way to move upward from a .500 team, there's nothing anyone can do to help anyone see that its possible. And that's the difference I see on this forum, most people don't believe that trades and free agents signings (small ones even) can work and see it as a treadmill. Except that trades and signings DO help good teams get better. Maybe too long of BC and his predecessors.

And for the anti-tank crowd, we can't see the value of ripping this down for 1 year of a draft. So we rip it all down just to have a shot this year? Because after this year you have to admit the lottery is a bigger crap shoot (e.g. Bennett, Bargs, Oden) and its never a guarantee.

And, winning builds winning. This team needs to stop being the laughing stock of the NBA before it can take a step forward. Even Detroit can sign players. And if you've ever been to Detroit (or the burbs) you would pick Toronto first. We stay a laughing stock and tank and we may find good talent only to see it leave ASAP because this team has never tried to win.

I think this team is better than most people here do. Maybe its different and IF I did think we were a bottom 10 team, I might think we should tank too. But we're not that bad. But... until that's proven by probably 20 more games, the tank crowd will roll on and so will the anti-tank.

Because tanking also requires a strategy. We are VERY late to the game if we want in. With the teams ahead of us in the tanking game, its pretty impossible to unload 40 million in Salary in Gay DD and Lowry and expect nothing back and that we won't still win at a better rate than the crappiest teams. If you wanted to tank hard you would take Amare or the Nets garbage but... they have no picks, so that doesn't work. So it doesn't work. Almost every other team (except maybe the Lakers) amnestied off their garbage contacts last year. On top of it all, tanking just aint as easy either. We can't just Lay these guys off! We have to take players back. If this was screamed about before Boston did it and raped the nets...I might have thought different but its late.

Last edited by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu; 11-26-2013 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 11-26-2013, 10:22 AM   #34 (permalink)
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This is why you do not tank on purpose unless your team is tankable. Example, Boston this year, with the big 3 now gone and only rondo still around Boston was put in a position to tank....us on the other hand are defineatly not in a tank position. Trade away demar, gay lowrey for hopes, dreams and picks and now were in a tank position also.

Now to the point. Most teams should not tank because:
1. 25%
2. 19%
3. 15%
4. 11%
5. 8%

Its that simple. The odds are shit, and its all a hue crap shoot that guarantees nothing. Any smart GM would davoid tanking at any cost unless they are in a position to actually tank. You don't dismantle a team just With the hopes of winning that first round pick.

Last edited by m5racer; 11-26-2013 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 11-26-2013, 10:29 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Not if you read the link it isn't.

Tanking doesn't work. Its not 100 or even 50% successful. What champ team came from that? Everyone assumes tank = win later and its just not true. Its not 3-5 years by tanking to get to winning it might be 10 years or 15 depending on luck. At least if you build a winning culture, players will be attracted to it. You cannot deny that when our dollar was worth garbage, and things in Canada were not as good as the US, a team that had success could sign talent to Canada in the Blue Jays. The best joined them because they wanted to win. The same would happen in basketball as it does now.

We have a 500 team. We are as close to contending as being a bottom feeder.

And if people think that there is no way to move upward from a .500 team, there's nothing anyone can do to help anyone see that its possible. And that's the difference I see on this forum, most people don't believe that trades and free agents signings (small ones even) can work and see it as a treadmill. Except that trades and signings DO help good teams get better. Maybe too long of BC and his predecessors.

And for the anti-tank crowd, we can't see the value of ripping this down for 1 year of a draft. So we rip it all down just to have a shot this year? Because after this year you have to admit the lottery is a bigger crap shoot (e.g. Bennett, Bargs, Oden) and its never a guarantee.

And, winning builds winning. This team needs to stop being the laughing stock of the NBA before it can take a step forward. Even Detroit can sign players. And if you've ever been to Detroit (or the burbs) you would pick Toronto first. We stay a laughing stock and tank and we may find good talent only to see it leave ASAP because this team has never tried to win.

I think this team is better than most people here do. Maybe its different and IF I did think we were a bottom 10 team, I might think we should tank too. But we're not that bad. But... until that's proven by probably 20 more games, the tank crowd will roll on and so will the anti-tank.

Because tanking also requires a strategy. We are VERY late to the game if we want in. With the teams ahead of us in the tanking game, its pretty impossible to unload 40 million in Salary in Gay DD and Lowry and expect nothing back and that we won't still win at a better rate than the crappiest teams. If you wanted to tank hard you would take Amare or the Nets garbage but... they have no picks, so that doesn't work. So it doesn't work. Almost every other team (except maybe the Lakers) amnestied off their garbage contacts last year. On top of it all, tanking just aint as easy either. We can't just Lay these guys off! We have to take players back. If this was screamed about before Boston did it and raped the nets...I might have thought different but its late.
Different post as there is no link or mention of it in the post I quoted.

Um, you mention Detroit. Detroit was able to sign guys because they had the necessary capspace to do it - not because of their current or previous state of affairs.

Oh you can make deals to get better - but will those deals be made - how major/minor?

We're not the Jays of 92-93. Unless you see greatness in any1 on the current roster.

That's the issue. Raps are doing ok in a s**t season. 1 game below .500 and somehow close to being a contender? The EC is like that this season and maybe next too but what happens after that? Things do change.

Have to be all in one way or the other and currently it looks like it is neither for the raps. Some may say that's patience but others may say it is a lack of planning going forward.
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Old 11-26-2013, 10:31 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by m5racer View Post
This is why you do not tank on purpose unless your team is tankable. Example, Boston this year, with the big 3 now gone and only rondo still around Boston was put in a position to tank....us on the other hand are defineatly not in a tank position. Trade away demar, gay lowrey for hopes, dreams and picks and now were in a tank position also.

Now to the point. Most teams should not tank because:
1. 25%
2. 19%
3. 15%
4. 11%
5. 8%

Its that simple. The odds are shit, and its all a hue crap shoot that guarantees nothing. Any smart GM would davoid tanking at any cost unless they are in a position to actually tank. You don't dismantle a team just With the hopes of winning that first round pick.
It's not a fight for just one man.

Also, picks could be dealt. Picks = phenomenal talent that can be kept for a period of time for a relatively cheap price and have value on the market.
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:08 AM   #37 (permalink)
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That wages of wins article is such garbage.

1. Wages of wins sucks, it had Lowry ahead of Tony Parker to start the season
2. 54 wins...what an arbitrary number to choose. Do all elite teams have to have 54 wins?
3. It fails to understand that many of those teams that are tanking are just shitty managed, not actually tanking properly, etc. And those teams hovering around 9th were previously tanking teams, just a couple years into the tank as there are always a couple transition years. Yet he gives the teams the same period of time to become competitive. Clearly teams a couple years into the tank will compete faster than those who just started.

Just a terrible article.
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:09 AM   #38 (permalink)
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I still don't think that we have to tank (I'm certainly not against it) to get good talent. And that would be trading for picks and young players who are not yet proven. In other words keep pieces that you think we can work with, and trade those who don't fit with system.
No mater how we look at it though, we either going to have to trade or resign Lowry.
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:38 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! View Post
It's not a fight for just one man.
But isn't it? When you destroy a team and turn it from .500ish to losing enough games to compete for the top 1-3 picks it does become a fight for just one man because your going to risk potentially the next 1-3-5 years playing like ass for that one pick. I can bet that that out of the top 10 players selected, 3-5 of those players will not be NBA starters come a few years down the road.
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Old 11-26-2013, 11:39 AM   #40 (permalink)
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But isn't it? When you destroy a team and turn it from .500ish to losing enough games to compete for the top 1-3 picks it does become a fight for just one man because your going to risk potentially the next 1-3-5 years playing like ass for that one pick. I can bet that that out of the top 10 players selected, 3-5 of those players will not be NBA starters come a few years down the road.
I'll take that bet
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