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-   -   Why are we building around the worst rebounding big in the NBA? (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/why-we-building-around-worst-rebounding-big-nba-22854.html)

fk24 04-30-2012 03:06 PM

Why are we building around the worst rebounding big in the NBA?
 
Bargnani at PF is such a liability and presents many holes we have to shore up. He gives up so many offensive rebounds and whatever he scores he gives back on the defensive end. This team shouldn't ignore certain guys in the draft because they play the same position as Bargnani.

'trane 04-30-2012 03:13 PM

because he is one of the most dynamic offensive bigs in the nba.

Grizz 04-30-2012 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fk24 (Post 640196)
Bargnani at PF is such a liability and presents many holes we have to shore up. He gives up so many offensive rebounds and whatever he scores he gives back on the defensive end. This team shouldn't ignore certain guys in the draft because they play the same position as Bargnani.

If there was a surefire stud PF I might agree with you, but there's not. If you're going to be throwing darts at draft picks, you shouldn't throw them at guys who fill holes where you're already 3 players deep.

Bargs may not be a star, but he is a starting quality player, especially if he truly turned any sort of corner with his play at the start of last season. I see no reason he can't learn to be a Dirk level defender (devil's advocate: haven't seen much to prove he can either).

I think this year really screwed our evaluation of him, because we can't really know if the Bargs from the first 13 games can be sustained for a whole season or not. Teased us with what could be.

fk24 04-30-2012 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grizz (Post 640200)
If there was a surefire stud PF I might agree with you, but there's not. If you're going to be throwing darts at draft picks, you shouldn't throw them at guys who fill holes where you're already 3 players deep.

Bargs may not be a star, but he is a starting quality player, especially if he truly turned any sort of corner with his play at the start of last season. I see no reason he can't learn to be a Dirk level defender (devil's advocate: haven't seen much to prove he can either).

I think this year really screwed our evaluation of him, because we can't really know if the Bargs from the first 13 games can be sustained for a whole season or not. Teased us with what could be.

A big who starts & plays 33+ minutes and averages 5 boards a game is starting quality? Dirk averages 3+ more boards and is a good help defender.

I don't think Bargnani will be better than Sullinger.

RAPMAN 04-30-2012 03:57 PM

Unless you have Dwight Howard @ C, you can't hide Bargnani. If you're averaging five boards a game playing all those minutes, the opponent is getting alot of offensive boards and getting more possessions. Let's go with Anthony Davis or Thomas Robinson.

10 04-30-2012 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fk24 (Post 640214)
A big who starts & plays 33+ minutes and averages 5 boards a game is starting quality? Dirk averages 3+ more boards and is a good help defender.

I don't think Bargnani will be better than Sullinger.

Dirk has played in one of the fastest paced teams in the whole league over the last decade. Most of his boards have always been defensive...Not to mention that he hasn't really played with any legit C's so he gets most boards by default.

Bad comparison I think.

MikeToronto 04-30-2012 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAPMAN (Post 640218)
Unless you have Dwight Howard @ C, you can't hide Bargnani. If you're averaging five boards a game playing all those minutes, the opponent is getting alot of offensive boards and getting more possessions. Let's go with Anthony Davis or Thomas Robinson.

Yes, that's right, let's go with Anthony Davis! :cookie::yeah:

LKeet6 04-30-2012 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fk24 (Post 640214)
A big who starts & plays 33+ minutes and averages 5 boards a game is starting quality? Dirk averages 3+ more boards and is a good help defender.

I don't think Bargnani will be better than Sullinger.

yes.

and, dirk avg 1.3reb more than bargs this season and bargs played more than 10 games whilst in terrible condition. (to be fair dirk had a very sluggish start to the season.)

Aamir 04-30-2012 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAPMAN (Post 640218)
Unless you have Dwight Howard @ C, you can't hide Bargnani. If you're averaging five boards a game playing all those minutes, the opponent is getting alot of offensive boards and getting more possessions. Let's go with Anthony Davis or Thomas Robinson.

lol You don't think we already know that? Not that there's a chance to get him anyways..

LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! 04-30-2012 04:08 PM

Thank god someone on this board pointed this out. Bargs has never even averaged 7 boards/game. I'm sorry but your starting PF who plays 30-35 mpg needs to haul down at least 7 boards/game. I wouldn't mind sullinger. The problem is that our GM loves Bargs and despite whatever happens, he'll continue to love him and treasure him despite his inefficiencies.

He's had one good stretch of games and we're all supposed to pretend that those 5 other seasons didn't happen.

LKeet6 04-30-2012 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! (Post 640231)
Thank god someone on this board pointed this out. Bargs has never even averaged 7 boards/game. I'm sorry but your starting PF who plays 30-35 mpg needs to haul down at least 7 boards/game. I wouldn't mind sullinger. The problem is that our GM loves Bargs and despite whatever happens, he'll continue to love him and treasure him despite his inefficiencies.

He's had one good stretch of games and we're all supposed to pretend that those 5 other seasons didn't happen.

but why are people so fixated on this number!? An extra 1.5rebs per game!? Also bargs can avg well over 6 in a normal, 82 game season with no major injury problems. So by your calculation less than 1 board per game on average would make all the difference!? crazy IMO. An extra 1.5 offensive boards for the opposition? Not ideal, but not a gamechanger.

I think for most people the reb numbers always indicated a lack of effort and emphasis on that area, rather than the actual number itself. That could be put down to coaching as well. A lot of people thought he'd be too soft to adapt to casey's ways but he showed the effort most people wanted. He was a lot better in general on D even if the numbers didn't massively reflect it.

jeffb 04-30-2012 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LKeet6 (Post 640236)
but why are people so fixated on this number!? An extra 1.5rebs per game!? Also bargs can avg well over 6 in a normal, 82 game season with no major injury problems.

Where's the proof? Well over 6? Wish I could agree with that. :sigh:

carp 04-30-2012 04:34 PM

It's pretty clear that he spends a fair amount of time on the perimeter which absolutely opens up the court for our many mediocre offensive talents.... but let's all focus on one stat category to fuel the burn! He makes 9M and there isn't one player at his position that could shut him down offensively consistently.

Ridiculous. Go hate on Brook Lopez too.

:cookie:

LKeet6 04-30-2012 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 640240)
Where's the proof? Well over 6? Wish I could agree with that. :sigh:

in '09 he avg 6.2, this year he avg 5.5 in 30 odd games where in 10+ games he was in terrible shape and/or played much less mins, had a big effect on the avg. Plus there was a bit of opinion in there! ;)

care to answer the rest of my point? improved D and effort, giving up 1.5 offensive boards not that big of a big deal? (as long as the effort on D is there.)

jeffb 04-30-2012 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LKeet6 (Post 640246)
in '09 he avg 6.2, this year he avg 5.5 in 30 odd games where in 10+ games he was in terrible shape and/or played much less mins, had a big effect on the avg. Plus there was a bit of opinion in there! ;)

care to answer the rest of my point? improved D and effort, giving up 1.5 offensive boards not that big of a big deal? (as long as the effort on D is there.)

A lot of opinion. Lol

He has never shown signs of being a consistent rebounder. And to say he could average well over 6 just doesn't hold water.

Grizz 04-30-2012 04:42 PM

The idea of replacing Bargnani with Sullinger and being a better team is so laughable I don't know where to start.

powerfulpanda 04-30-2012 04:46 PM

when was the last time bargnani even played a FULL season? if hes not playing, he's not playing. i mean you can say he can do this this and this when he's healthy. well the point is he isn't, so it doesn't matter.
theres always something going on with this guy. when he's healthy hes got motivational issues. when it looks like he might be turning the corner, he gets injured. we keep holding on to him and hes gonna be past his "prime" and we'd be left asking ourselves where did all the time go?

LKeet6 04-30-2012 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 640249)
A lot of opinion. Lol

He has never shown signs of being a consistent rebounder. And to say he could average well over 6 just doesn't hold water.

come on jeff, my overall point was more subtle than that.

he HAS avg over 6 in a full season. Maybe you baulked at my use of the word well over. But my point was about another poster's obsession with numbers. He wanted at least 7 for a PF and i was saying he's obsessed with 1.5 rebs, and in the '09 case and (my opinion for next season,) less than 1 reb.

plus i talked about improved effort and better D, which is what most people wanted rather than a stat.

oh yeah, and i would like the barg haters to address why giving up 1.5 off reb is such a huge problem. (it's not ideal but isn't going to cost us games.)

and, and, bargs giving up 1.5 reb doesn't neccesarily mean the team does, others can mae up for it.

fk24 04-30-2012 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grizz (Post 640250)
The idea of replacing Bargnani with Sullinger and being a better team is so laughable I don't know where to start.

Sullinger is the anchor of the best defensive team in college basketball.

What exactly is bargnani the anchor of?

Rebunding defense inside game Sullinger is better than Bargnani.

What is so laughable?

Bankiz 04-30-2012 04:48 PM

i always had-have mix thoughts about bargs.
one season i like him as much as shit, one i don't care, and this one i find him better than shit, but he doesn't play trough a lot.

but to me, trade him to a team who badly need a PF/C scorer (like houston) and grab as many asset as you can.


but i remenber that dallas got trough the same critic with DIRk for more than a decade. and now everybody occult the bad defense of dirk.

you dont play a system base on utopia, you play a system with what you have, and you adapt your system with what you have to win. that(s how a coach should coach.

Now if you are not satisfied with what you have, you should ask your GM to provide something else.

Casey doesn't seem to care about barg lack of defense or low number, because he think he can run his defense with him.
the problem i think is when you have to below defender at 2 such important spot than the 1 and the 4.
if you want to win, and fight to win, one of the two ned to go and make place for a better player at one of the 2 spot where you don't have what you need.

so else you trade caldy or bargs. or both and make a huge splash trade to build properly.

i poll for this solution. yes caldy is a real general, buthe can run a defense with an average defender like DD, a solid one like JJ, an futur maybe-good one with JV, and an inconstistent-modd defender like Barg.

No team had never won nothing with that.

to me dragic can run the defense as well as the offense better than caldy for this team and then make barg better. or don't make him as weak. because dragic put high pressure on other pg.
then barg will be no more the big problem on defense, because you have what you need to disrupt in backcourt.

Now barg can be a star at PF, and provide our team with more than he did the last 6 season. maybe.

we can discuss that for eterniy, since the lottery isn't here.
what do you think BC will do if we grab the 1st and get Davis. do you trade barg or not to go forward ? i do. but for now, we don't have a better PF than him. so until we find one (FA or draft) we need him to play to his best duriong at least next season, and show us how wrong we are. (yeah, i know we wait for it since 2006 !!!)

LOL !!!


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