Why are we building around the worst rebounding big in the NBA? - Page 3

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Old 04-30-2012, 10:56 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Well, when I look at a player, especially a big. 3 things come in in terms of how they're evaluated: The offensive side of the ball, D and rebounding. When someone is phenomenal at all 3 aspects, they are in hall of famer/clear franchise cornerstone level - so in terms of PF - the best example is KG - superb on offense, a solid rebounder and a solid defender. TD was also great at all three, except he offered more rim protection. Dwight is the same in terms of being great at all three. (granted he could learn a few post moves to truly be dominant but besides that). Dwight offers rim protection.

Next group is the group of guys who do 2 things very well. Usually when they are great or decent at 2 things they can be all stars or good second options offensively. We had the perfect example of one playing in Toronto for a while in CB. CB isn't elite on D and is average/ok/decent on that end of the floor. There are countless others in the league who do well in terms of rebounding and offense.

The parallel to the previous group is the group of players who aren't exactly options on offense but defend well and rebound well - exhibit a - J.Noah. Ben Wallace in his prime was the perfect example of this kind of player.

The 3rd group is the group of players who only do one thing very well and struggle in other aspects. R.Evans is a great example - monster on the glass, but not the best defender and certainly not an option on offense. Sometimes when a player is in this category if they truly excel in that one part of the game, they can possibly be a starter or a 6th man. Bargs is currently in this group. If he could rebound he wouldn't be in this group. If he improves his d (I didn't suggest rebounding because let's face it, he's been in the league how long and his rebounding %ages haven't really improved) he could join the other group where other bigs who aren't exactly good on D have been because they can rebound the ball (ie. David Lee, Carlos Boozer).

I'm not hating, I'm just telling the truth. I know as long as BC is here Bargs will be here.

PS: I've watched the raps get manhandled live by the atlanta hawks, lose to a Rose-less Bulls live, lose to PHX twice - live.

Last edited by LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!!; 04-30-2012 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:02 PM   #42 (permalink)
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You make absolutely excellent points.

I think though there are intagibles that a player may bring to the table that is outside the 3 tangible aspects that you mentioned.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:09 PM   #43 (permalink)
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You make absolutely excellent points.

I think though there are intagibles that a player may bring to the table that is outside the 3 tangible aspects that you mentioned.
Thanks. Of course there are intangibles, and what I wrote was the short version, I've written a much longer version on another board with a hell of a lot more examples, stats, analysis etc.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:24 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! View Post
Thanks. Of course there are intangibles, and what I wrote was the short version, I've written a much longer version on another board with a hell of a lot more examples, stats, analysis etc.
The short version would've been:

Bargnani is one dimensional.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:32 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! View Post
Well, when I look at a player, especially a big. 3 things come in in terms of how they're evaluated: The offensive side of the ball, D and rebounding. When someone is phenomenal at all 3 aspects, they are in hall of famer/clear franchise cornerstone level - so in terms of PF - the best example is KG - superb on offense, a solid rebounder and a solid defender. TD was also great at all three, except he offered more rim protection. Dwight is the same in terms of being great at all three. (granted he could learn a few post moves to truly be dominant but besides that). Dwight offers rim protection.

Next group is the group of guys who do 2 things very well. Usually when they are great or decent at 2 things they can be all stars or good second options offensively. We had the perfect example of one playing in Toronto for a while in CB. CB isn't elite on D and is average/ok/decent on that end of the floor. There are countless others in the league who do well in terms of rebounding and offense.

The parallel to the previous group is the group of players who aren't exactly options on offense but defend well and rebound well - exhibit a - J.Noah. Ben Wallace in his prime was the perfect example of this kind of player.

The 3rd group is the group of players who only do one thing very well and struggle in other aspects. R.Evans is a great example - monster on the glass, but not the best defender and certainly not an option on offense. Sometimes when a player is in this category if they truly excel in that one part of the game, they can possibly be a starter or a 6th man. Bargs is currently in this group. If he could rebound he wouldn't be in this group. If he improves his d (I didn't suggest rebounding because let's face it, he's been in the league how long and his rebounding %ages haven't really improved) he could join the other group where other bigs who aren't exactly good on D have been because they can rebound the ball (ie. David Lee, Carlos Boozer).

I'm not hating, I'm just telling the truth. I know as long as BC is here Bargs will be here.

PS: I've watched the raps get manhandled live by the atlanta hawks, lose to a Rose-less Bulls live, lose to PHX twice - live.
there really is no description for how a position should be played.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:33 PM   #46 (permalink)
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The short version would've been:

Bargnani is one dimensional.
well played sir, well played.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:44 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Yes he is quite one-dimensional, and not yet all that proven in that respect, particularly when he's less than 100 percent physically. In my mind he can offer a lot more to a team that has a complete core in place. He's not a guy you build around at this point. But he could net a lot in return so that you have a well-balanced and fairly deep team that is able to maximize strengths on both ends rather than need to minimize weaknesses. Now if they can fill out a roster in a similar fashion without having to give up Bargnani it could mean a real jump in the development of this team. I'm just not sure how they do that, and hope they don't take two steps backwards trying to thread that needle.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:49 PM   #48 (permalink)
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If he shoots 45% again next year, he's not going to be around for another. Pretty bad for a centre.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:53 PM   #49 (permalink)
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If he shoots 45% again next year, he's not going to be around for another. Pretty bad for a centre.
Good thing he isn't a Center
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Old 05-01-2012, 09:35 AM   #50 (permalink)
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In my opinion with good role players you can create a playoff team (Philly in mid case, Indiana in best case), but if you wanna a real contender you need players with something special. When I see Bargs offense, i see something special. I don't know if he will ever be an all-star, but I think that Raps must believe in him.

Yes, you can pick Sullinger, have a better team defensive playing and chemistry and trade Bargnani for a good 1 or 3. But is this the best choice?

I think that Andrea could perfect for some great teams (Magic, Bulls, Lakers...), and he could be a perfect fit for Carmelo at NY (for sure better than Stoudemire). As Italian fan, I would love to see Andrea playing for such great teams, but I like also these new Raptors created by Casey. I see playoff happens next year, and I believe in Colangelo.

Sorry for my English
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Old 05-01-2012, 09:43 AM   #51 (permalink)
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It is the best choice in dealing him because even though it's nice to see him play on offense, his d is horrendous and he's not a big man. Why do you think Ed Davis has been kept, ED could be a 10/10/1-2 PF. He is there in case they deal Bargs.

My dad is spanish and I've grown up around spaniards and I love Jose to death. However, he should not be starting for this team. He can't break down opposing teams' D. However he had his best defensive rating this season and will be a nice trade asset.
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Old 05-01-2012, 10:12 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Answer to the originial question: Because he's by far the best player on this team. Now with JV coming over, we'll start building aroiund both of them.
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Old 05-01-2012, 10:21 AM   #53 (permalink)
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*he is by far the best offensive player on this team.
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Old 05-01-2012, 10:25 AM   #54 (permalink)
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*for parts of a season
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Old 05-01-2012, 10:28 AM   #55 (permalink)
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People are overdoing the horrendous defense. Usual extremes, Bargs is really talented with good size. He improved his help D this year, and will get better in Caseys system. With a kid that plays the way JV does and having ED/Amir is perfect for Bargs... I don't know why this discussion comes up every week on this forum. We will deffinately miss him if we move him. Grass is always greener I guess.
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Old 05-01-2012, 11:35 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Unless you have Dwight Howard @ C, you can't hide Bargnani. If you're averaging five boards a game playing all those minutes, the opponent is getting alot of offensive boards and getting more possessions. Let's go with Anthony Davis or Thomas Robinson.
Yeah, look at how huge of an impact he has when he's on the court versus off!

Opponent's team offensive rebounding:
Bargnani on court: 30.7%
Bargnani off court: 28.8%

That's... a 1.9% difference. Looking at the number of available rebounds (Raps DRB per game plus Raps opp ORB per game) which is 2074 + 677 = 2751 / 66 games = 41.68 rebounds available, and Bargnani plays about 33.3 minutes per game, that means that Bargnani's 1.9% difference is... 0.55 offensive rebounds per game for the opponent.

Perhaps we are overstating things here, huh?
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Old 05-01-2012, 12:07 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Just wanted to remind people how Bargnani was doing before vs after the all star break.

Code:
Split		Value	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	3P	3PA	FT	FTA	ORB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK
All-Star	Pre	13	13	469	109	229	18	53	70	83	11	83	27	5	9	
		Post	18	18	562	100	255	16	62	81	90	13	89	34	13	6
Code:
TOV	PF	PTS	FG%	3P%	FT%	MP	PTS	TRB	AST
29	21	306	.476	.340	.843	36.1	23.5	6.4	2.1
40	31	297	.392	.258	.900	31.2	16.5	4.9	1.9
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Old 05-01-2012, 12:09 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Bargnani did go a long way in not costing this team so much in all areas, including offensively, where he was much more efficient, for 13 games at least. But I look at what this team needs to do to get better, and that still includes defense. As much as AB, and the team as a whole improved, they still relied too much on the system's mechanics, and not enough on reading and reacting. They were able to improve the odds and statistics throughout games, but they also relied on a lot on fouling, which had an overall negative impact on the offense (since they had to play more half court sets against set defenses). And ultimately they didn't look to have great success at getting stops when they were required most. Many times in those situations, Bargnani's poor rebounding came into play, and that spells losing regardless of how numbers average out.

Personally, I'd like to see a shutdown defense that can provide easy offense in transition come into play, and that happens in my mind by converting Bargnani's value for pieces that fit better in that respect. Otherwise, my gut tells me that this team hits a ceiling pretty quickly.
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Old 05-01-2012, 12:21 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Just being a realist, but I'm pretty sure Bargs as our best PF is our ceiling. Its BCs job now to put him in the best possible scenario personal wise to get us to that ceiling. Not like Raps are heading to a dynasty or something.
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Old 05-01-2012, 12:55 PM   #60 (permalink)
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A big who starts & plays 33+ minutes and averages 5 boards a game is starting quality? Dirk averages 3+ more boards and is a good help defender.
Not to mention Dirk is putting up those numbers while he's 33 and in the last stages of his career while Barg is putting up his while he's in his prime, so even at his best Barg is putting up inferior numbers to Dirk while Dirk is at his worst. A fairer comparison between the two would be when they're at the same ages and points in their careers. Compare Barg's 5th season (last year) with the advantage that it has been his best so far to Dirk's 5th season and in every respect Dirk blows Barg out of the water. No coincidence that the best players on elite teams happen to be of the elite variety while the best players on mediocre teams are merely of the solid-to-above-average variety (or are rookies). You don't determine how good a player is by comparing him to the rest of the players on his team, you do so by comparing him to the rest of the players in the league.
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