Why can't Jose come off the bench?? - Page 5
Old 03-28-2012, 12:44 PM   #81 (permalink)
waiting for his team to return

Member
 
Grizz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 483
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by baller13 View Post
I'm saying those are the numbers he'd likely put up if he were given Calderon or Derozan type minutes (33-36 mpg).
You do realize that you are agreeing then, that we've established his ceiling? As in, what he's capable of if given opportunity?

I feel like people get far too enamoured with Bayless' starter stats without looking at what happens to the rest of the team when he's out there. The guy clearly does not know how to run a team, and I'm not sure how long we're supposed to keep waiting for him to figure it out?
Grizz is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 12:53 PM   #82 (permalink)
.

Senior Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 11,485
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizz View Post
You do realize that you are agreeing then, that we've established his ceiling? As in, what he's capable of if given opportunity?

I feel like people get far too enamoured with Bayless' starter stats without looking at what happens to the rest of the team when he's out there. The guy clearly does not know how to run a team, and I'm not sure how long we're supposed to keep waiting for him to figure it out?
Totally agree. Let's not forget the stats that Westbrook puts up in OKC and that he still gets questioned as the PG to run that team. Bayless isn't even half as good as Westbrook. Unfortunately, we don't have Durant either.
carp is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 01:00 PM   #83 (permalink)
Gam zeh ya'avor

The Gatekeeper
 
MikeToronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,908
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
i just think it's pretty odd to state flatly that this can't be learned past the age of 19 or so.
This is, in essence, an age old "nature vs. nurture" argument. I have an established opinion, which, most likely, is going to be offensive to you, and so we could either spend a lot of time debating it here or just let it be.

To clarify - I am firmly in the "nature" camp. I do not believe that Einstein or Nash (both Steve and John Forbes) could be "nurtured". The opposite is true - a potential genius could be trampled over or otherwise not allowed to grow to its full potential, but certain facets of human activity, both physical and mental, require "natural" prerequisites to become a "genius" at. And yes, being a starting-quality NBA point guard is one of those activities.
MikeToronto is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 01:17 PM   #84 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,546
Representing:
Default

firstly, i'm not offended. people throw that word around but it means something distinctly different than disagreement.

secondly, i definitely do not think yuou need to be a 'genius' at the level fo einstein to play nba point guard. and further, the evidence of guys improving significantly after they reach the nba is reason to believe there is lots of room for nurture in this. surely you can't think that it is nature only.
'trane is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 01:51 PM   #85 (permalink)
Gam zeh ya'avor

The Gatekeeper
 
MikeToronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,908
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
firstly, i'm not offended. people throw that word around but it means something distinctly different than disagreement.

secondly, i definitely do not think yuou need to be a 'genius' at the level fo einstein to play nba point guard. and further, the evidence of guys improving significantly after they reach the nba is reason to believe there is lots of room for nurture in this. surely you can't think that it is nature only.
1. No problem, you are not offended, all the better.

2. Nothing is "nature only". But in a lot of activities, IMO, nature sets the limiting bar for what nurture can achieve. Basketball-related examples of these are free-throw shooting vs. vertical leaping ability. A huge percentage of the population not suffering from any hand-eye coordination disorders can be taught to consistently shoot over 90% from the FT line, given enough time, desire and proper coaching. However, no matter how hard you work on your leaping ability, there is a natural barrier that you simply can't overcome, and for some people that would be 20", while for others it'd be 30 and for a lucky few - 42".

Along these same lines, I believe that players can improve their court vision and their decision-making, to a point. And since Bayless clearly stated, on more than one occasion, that he sees himself as a point guard, and also since he appears to be an earnest and hard-working young man, I can only surmise that he's spent considerable amount of time and effort already to try and improve in those areas, and he probably has. It's just that his bar is too low for a starting PG in the NBA, that's all.

P.S. And yes, to be a great NBA point guard, you need to be as much a genius in court-vision and decision-making as Einstein was in physics and math, IMO.
MikeToronto is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 02:02 PM   #86 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,546
Representing:
Default

that ps is really straining my ability to find agreement with you on this. hand-eye coordination and vision, vs theoretical physics and determining the nature of the universe - these are very different things. and this is a real issue in this analysis.

and i don't see how either one of thos eis anything like leaping ability - purely the product of muscle strength and physiology.


any doctors in the house?
'trane is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 02:06 PM   #87 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummomd so people stop whining

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 72,786
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeToronto View Post
P.S. And yes, to be a great NBA point guard, you need to be as much a genius in court-vision and decision-making as Einstein was in physics and math, IMO.
Calderon is no Einstein
jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 02:08 PM   #88 (permalink)
Gam zeh ya'avor

The Gatekeeper
 
MikeToronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,908
Representing:
Default

OK, let's forget about PGs for a second.

All I am saying is that SOME activities require serious natural pre-disposition to be really good at. Free-throw shooting isn't one of them, while split-second decision making/seeing multiple moving "targets" around you and theoretical physics/higher math are. That's not comparing math to court vision, that's grouping them by activity type.
MikeToronto is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 02:12 PM   #89 (permalink)
Gam zeh ya'avor

The Gatekeeper
 
MikeToronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,908
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffb View Post
Calderon is no Einstein
Oscar, Magic, Pistol Pete, Nash - those are Einsteins. Calderon is more like Pascal or Torricelli. But we were talking about Bayless, and among point guards, he is Leonard Hofstadter.
MikeToronto is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 02:30 PM   #90 (permalink)
.

Senior Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 11,485
Representing:
Default

carp is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 02:34 PM   #91 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Senior Member
 
Superjudge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,593
Representing:
Default

Mike James Scored 30 a game with good minutes, how did he help team continuity?
Superjudge is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 02:38 PM   #92 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,546
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeToronto View Post
All I am saying is that SOME activities require serious natural pre-disposition to be really good at.
ok, maybe. i can work with this as a concept, although i can't be certain as i am not an expert in this field. i have my doubts, depending on what you mean by that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeToronto View Post
Free-throw shooting isn't one of them, while split-second decision making/seeing multiple moving "targets" around you and theoretical physics/higher math are.
could you give me some idea of what criteria makes it so easy for you to assert this? it would also help to have some literature that would support this, although i can't expect that you would have this at your disposal.

i am making an assumption that you are also not an expert in physiology and brain chemistry. the thing is that you are making a claim that is based in this type of knowledge. i have my doubts, so am looking for something credible beyond your own assumptions to back this up.

i don't see an obvious connection between theoretical physics/math and pg skills. i also don't see any evidence for the 'must have natural abilities' to be great at either of these things.

einstein may have had asd or aspergers. is that a prerequisite to a natural predisposition for physics? or is it some other part of his brain that is hardwired for this? how do we/can we possibly know the answers to this?

i am not saying you are definitively wrong, but as i said before, i just think it's pretty odd to state this flatly, and to be so sure.
'trane is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 02:39 PM   #93 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummomd so people stop whining

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 72,786
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superjudge View Post
Mike James Scored 30 a game with good minutes, how did he help team continuity?
On that team......who cares,.... there was no hope there. Jose doesn't score....where have we gone with him? Continuity or not.
jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 04:30 PM   #94 (permalink)
Gam zeh ya'avor

The Gatekeeper
 
MikeToronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,908
Representing:
Default

'trane, there is a difference between a scientific journal and a basketball message board.

I am not publishing the results of a proper study nor do I quote serious researchers who have done such study. I am "flatly and surely" making the statements that I believe to be true - I am expressing my opinion that is based on my personal experience and also on that of people I have personally known or observed. There is no claim of absolute knowledge there, of course.

Is your experience telling you I am wrong?

As for being "odd" - yep, that I am.
MikeToronto is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 04:59 PM   #95 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,546
Representing:
Default

cool. then based on my opinion and nothing else, most basketball players are closer to dumb than genius. you need two eyes and the gift of athleticism combined with the commitment to work out and improve your skills. plenty of dudes have gotten better once coming to the nba, ergo, it is possible and not something you are born with.
'trane is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 05:01 PM   #96 (permalink)
waiting for his team to return

Member
 
Grizz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 483
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
. and further, the evidence of guys improving significantly after they reach the nba is reason to believe there is lots of room for nurture in this.
Serious question: What are some good examples of players developing the ability to run a team from the pg position, in the sense we're talking about here?
Grizz is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 05:15 PM   #97 (permalink)
I believe in Masai!

giant steps

 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,546
Representing:
Default

i have already listed 3 of them in this thread.
'trane is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 05:25 PM   #98 (permalink)
Gam zeh ya'avor

The Gatekeeper
 
MikeToronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,908
Representing:
Default

Career, regular season:

Chauncey Billups - 5.5 APG
Jrue Holiday - 5.2 APG
Ramon Sessions - 4.8 APG

Steve Nash - 8.6 APG
Jose Calderon - 7.0 APG

All the numbers above are somewhat "tarnished" because all five players spent some time as backups.

Great career starters:

Chris Paul - 9.9 APG
Deron Williams - 9.1 APG

Need to know numbers for Bayless? Let's not go there.

There has not been a high-assists man in the NBA who learned to be a high-assists man (and no, around 5 per game is not enough).

Last edited by MikeToronto; 03-28-2012 at 05:34 PM.
MikeToronto is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 05:26 PM   #99 (permalink)
Gam zeh ya'avor

The Gatekeeper
 
MikeToronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,908
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
i have already listed 3 of them in this thread.
Sorry, I only found 2.

Edit: right, Sessions - thanks, Grizz.

Last edited by MikeToronto; 03-28-2012 at 05:32 PM.
MikeToronto is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 05:26 PM   #100 (permalink)
waiting for his team to return

Member
 
Grizz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 483
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
i have already listed 3 of them in this thread.
Billups, Jrue and Sessions? Jrue's APG and AST% have both plummeted this year after showing modest improvement last season. Billups I agree improved in this area quite a bit, but I'm not waiting until Bayless is 28-32 for this to happen. Sessions actually had better APG and AST% in his rookie year than he has this year, even if you use only his LAL splits.
Grizz is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24