Why is Bargnani on this team? - Page 2
Old 02-01-2011, 06:42 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
Bargs takes bad shots. He doesn't rebound (even when he's in position to). He shows no intensity at all. He rarely passes.

And this is the coach's fault?

Why was Bosh able to put up career numbers last season playing for the same coach?
Isn't it the coaches job to tell the players hey stop fucking shooting and maybe pass the ball? Nope in the post game Triano is always like "you know what... the shots were great!!! they weren't going in, but they were great! I saw about 2 other guys open, but the shot was great!! If he doesn't show intensity he should get sent to the bench... Whose job is that???

Bosh's numbers don't mean shit, and have nothing to do with Triano. The W-L record does though... I'm not blaming him for the way AB is playing, but the overall game. He makes horrible decisions in crunch time, makes questionable subs, and I hate his "international" coaching scheme. The lack of defense on this team is ALL on him.

Last edited by surreyjack; 02-01-2011 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:50 PM   #22 (permalink)
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false.........
please.... tell me how its false?
and while ur at it, also tell me a nba player who was horrible at rebounding and defence but suddenly it clicked for him
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:53 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Defense is taught. It's not all about individual defense, but team defense also. Look at Philly, from one of the worst defensive teams, to now one of the most improved under a new coach.
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:59 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Defense is taught. It's not all about individual defense, but team defense also. Look at Philly, from one of the worst defensive teams, to now one of the most improved under a new coach.
we aren't talking team tho...were talking about Bargs individual d/effort/rebs
and how you want to blame Bargs overall struggles on the coach
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:10 PM   #25 (permalink)
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we aren't talking team tho...were talking about Bargs individual d/effort/rebs
and how you want to blame Bargs overall struggles on the coach
No edit. What I was blaming on the coach was how AB is being utilized. If he can't rebound or defend, he should be forced to do other things like get assists, and make players for others like he did in the Knicks game and not jack up 30 shots a game.

Last edited by 'trane; 02-01-2011 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:21 PM   #26 (permalink)
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No edit. What I was blaming on the coach was how AB is being utilized. If he can't rebound or defend, he should be forced to do other things like get assists, and make players for others like he did in the Knicks game and not jack up 30 shots a game.
Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds? "He should be forced to get assists?" WTF does THAT mean? He's an NBA player in his 5th year! If he doesn't yet know how to influence the game chucking then he's an idiot... and that certainly isn't the coach's fault.

As for the sub patterns.... Triano's been working with a roster of 8 or 9 guys IN TOTAL... he doesn't have a whole lot of choice in that area no does he?

Bargs' shitty play is on Bargs... period. He can go out there and rebound the basketball... he can go out there and get to the FT line... but he has little to no interest in doing either.

Last edited by 'trane; 02-01-2011 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:23 PM   #27 (permalink)
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edit Like I stated in my earlier post he is the teams best offense threat, as sad as that is that's not the point here. We're using him like the no1 option that he is. What else do u expect the coach to do? He can't do anything else...

Anyways I'm done going back and forth with someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. Ur probably gonna reply with some comment competely ignore everything that I've said but I won't know. I'm done with this post

Last edited by 'trane; 02-01-2011 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:24 PM   #28 (permalink)
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please cut it with the insults.
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:40 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Bargs is on this team because of BC, he drafted him out of the fact that he was the most talented player in the draft at that time. For the most part, for his size and height, he is talented. He may not be multi-faceted, but he is talented at what he does and thats to score. Now its inconsistent, but its what we have now. Defense and rebounding are not instinctive and it can be taught. Imo, the core we have now is fine only needing some tweaks at the C and SF. Remember also this is the first year in the NBA where he has to lead and carry a team and that he's also not playing 100%. We should at least be happy he's playing through injuries rather than sitting out and watching. I'm not making excuses for him, but those things are factors for him this year. I too believe that he's frustrating at times and that sometimes it is the coach's fault and other players' fault, but what can you do?
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:47 PM   #30 (permalink)
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People never learn. If we should have learned anything, which we should have, from the Hedo situation, is that there is a market for every player. Every player has value. Fans that have the 'he must go at all costs' attitude are simply foolish or ignorant to what goes on in this league.
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:52 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds? "He should be forced to get assists?" WTF does THAT mean? He's an NBA player in his 5th year! If he doesn't yet know how to influence the game chucking then he's an idiot... and that certainly isn't the coach's fault.

As for the sub patterns.... Triano's been working with a roster of 8 or 9 guys IN TOTAL... he doesn't have a whole lot of choice in that area no does he?

Bargs' shitty play is on Bargs... period. He can go out there and rebound the basketball... he can go out there and get to the FT line... but he has little to no interest in doing either.
The way I said it sounds stupid. I have seen countless times when the defense is focused on AB and people are standing open under the basket or cutting and he doesn't even think about passing it, that's when the coach is suppose to say something imo.

His sub patterns have always been horrible, same with his last minute play calls, and the defense he has been trying to implement for the last 50 seasons.

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Like I stated in my earlier post he is the teams best offense threat, as sad as that is that's not the point here. We're using him like the no1 option that he is. What else do u expect the coach to do? He can't do anything else...

Anyways I'm done going back and forth with someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. Ur probably gonna reply with some comment competely ignore everything that I've said but I won't know. I'm done with this post
Ahhh.... I know he's our #1 option man, I never disagreed. The only thing I was suggesting was that we use him to run offense through, so he can get other players involved. You can use your #1 options in other ways other than just scoring. He can set other players up... He got 6 assists in that game against the Knicks but he's been too fucking greedy with the ball lately.

edit

Last edited by 'trane; 02-01-2011 at 07:56 PM.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:54 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I was going to start separate thread about this question but there are like 458 Bargnani threads currently anyway....

One thing keeps gnawing at me.....It is one thing to say that Bargnani needs to man up and that he's not trying when it comes to rebounding and help defense. That means you can continue to work with him. one day a l ight goes on, one day there's more fire in his belly, one day he says even when my jump shot is failing, there is so much more I can do for this team.


But what if.....he's...just...not...capable. Reggie's not capable of dropping 30, Demar's not capable of pulling down 20 boards, I can't be sure Bargnani is actually capable physically and mentally to do what we are all screaming for, at least not for more than a game or 2.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:17 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I was going to start separate thread about this question but there are like 458 Bargnani threads currently anyway....

One thing keeps gnawing at me.....It is one thing to say that Bargnani needs to man up and that he's not trying when it comes to rebounding and help defense. That means you can continue to work with him. one day a l ight goes on, one day there's more fire in his belly, one day he says even when my jump shot is failing, there is so much more I can do for this team.


But what if.....he's...just...not...capable. Reggie's not capable of dropping 30, Demar's not capable of pulling down 20 boards, I can't be sure Bargnani is actually capable physically and mentally to do what we are all screaming for, at least not for more than a game or 2.
That's what I always tend to come back to. What if he's just not the player we all (mostly) thought he was or could be?

When he does succeed it is usually due to having a great deal of space to operate on both ends, and just the right pace to the game. If he can be left alone to take a dribble and step into his shot he's gold. And he can defend if the offense in front of him does not involve his guy all that much. When conditions are just so and he feels perfectly comfortable, he can do what is expected of his talent level. There are no fadeaways. He'll get a few dunks, and he'll get after a few boards that don't fall into his lap. But once the schedule wears him down, teams start to play him physically, and the pace of games slows into more of a mid-season grind, the light never comes on. He starts to lose all electricity. He has nothing that he can rely on. And so up go the fadeaways, the wild shots, the reliance on stiff-legged 3-pointers.

It's just all-or-nothing. And it's too hard to go into the bulk of NBA games with everything just so. He needed to figure out how to make some kind of impact in games one way or another a long time ago. Instead he relied on waiting for his game to heat up for a stretch when he played a good number of minutes. It's just the wrong approach. He's not good enough to pull that off like a Lamar Odom does. But it's always going to be the way he approaches the game. Therein lies my disgust. It's a terrible waste.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:52 PM   #34 (permalink)
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That's what I always tend to come back to. What if he's just not the player we all (mostly) thought he was or could be?

When he does succeed it is usually due to having a great deal of space to operate on both ends, and just the right pace to the game. If he can be left alone to take a dribble and step into his shot he's gold. And he can defend if the offense in front of him does not involve his guy all that much. When conditions are just so and he feels perfectly comfortable, he can do what is expected of his talent level. There are no fadeaways. He'll get a few dunks, and he'll get after a few boards that don't fall into his lap. But once the schedule wears him down, teams start to play him physically, and the pace of games slows into more of a mid-season grind, the light never comes on. He starts to lose all electricity. He has nothing that he can rely on. And so up go the fadeaways, the wild shots, the reliance on stiff-legged 3-pointers.

It's just all-or-nothing. And it's too hard to go into the bulk of NBA games with everything just so. He needed to figure out how to make some kind of impact in games one way or another a long time ago. Instead he relied on waiting for his game to heat up for a stretch when he played a good number of minutes. It's just the wrong approach. He's not good enough to pull that off like a Lamar Odom does. But it's always going to be the way he approaches the game. Therein lies my disgust. It's a terrible waste.
I read all you wrote there, LX, but does that last sentence still imply that he is actually capable and will not as opposed to cannot?
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Old 02-02-2011, 10:00 AM   #35 (permalink)
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I read all you wrote there, LX, but does that last sentence still imply that he is actually capable and will not as opposed to cannot?
I started to answer this. But it went nowhere. It's like a zen koan. He is capable of excellence, but usually not in the face of sustained resistance. He can be the hammer, but usually ends up being the nail. And there's really no way to figure it out. I know I'm just not one to think it's going to change.
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Old 02-02-2011, 11:03 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I am a Bargnani Fan... but.....

I have no issue with Bargs offense. You can get into slumps.
But the issue i have is that in the past few games he has had the opportunity to guard some descent centres who i think are of similar calibre as him.
And he has gotten worked every time. Little to no effort on defense. Like i literally saw him just watching players stroll by him and even get position under the net with ease.
Something has to change.

I am sick of seeing smirks and smiles coming from the opposite team as if...damn that last basket was riduculouslly easy to get. Bargs is a wuss under the boards.
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Old 02-02-2011, 11:28 AM   #37 (permalink)
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false.........

So Reggie Evans is coached better by Triano then Bargnani is to go grab rebounds?
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Old 02-02-2011, 11:35 AM   #38 (permalink)
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I am a Bargnani Fan... but.....

I have no issue with Bargs offense. You can get into slumps.
But the issue i have is that in the past few games he has had the opportunity to guard some descent centres who i think are of similar calibre as him.
And he has gotten worked every time. Little to no effort on defense. Like i literally saw him just watching players stroll by him and even get position under the net with ease.
Something has to change.

I am sick of seeing smirks and smiles coming from the opposite team as if...damn that last basket was riduculouslly easy to get. Bargs is a wuss under the boards.

100% Agree... couldnt of said it better myself

Players get into slumps, he's in a offensive slump... but his defence is getting WORSE ... I have never seen it this bad... He has no interest in Boxing out, Grabbing boards, help defence, running out getting a handup in the face of a shooter...

I dont get it, it's like he only cares about his offensive numbers, he doesn't care if the team wins the game or not aslong as he gets his points...

Really frustrating
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Old 02-02-2011, 11:53 AM   #39 (permalink)
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100% Agree... couldnt of said it better myself

Players get into slumps, he's in a offensive slump... but his defence is getting WORSE ... I have never seen it this bad... He has no interest in Boxing out, Grabbing boards, help defence, running out getting a handup in the face of a shooter...

I dont get it, it's like he only cares about his offensive numbers, he doesn't care if the team wins the game or not aslong as he gets his points...

Really frustrating
I also agree that he's in an offensive slump and that his defense is lacking. Maybe because he's not 100% or that he's tired? 1st season being the number 1 guy can be tiring, maybe he is from the 1st half of the season. I'm not making excuses for him, but I'm just looking at it in different perspectives. At some games he'll rebound but he rarely does ever box out which pisses me off too. It leads to too many putbacks and offensive rebounds and also leads to other players having to foul. But we can't say that he just cares solely on his offensive numbers or his points. I don't think anyone plays for points and doesn't care of their team wins or loses.
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Old 02-02-2011, 02:55 PM   #40 (permalink)
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So Reggie Evans is coached better by Triano then Bargnani is to go grab rebounds?
Your pigeon holing coaching as running drills and working on fundamentals. Rebounding and defense are not just instinct and effort. They are learned skills. Skills which are honed through experience,through failures, though tutelage. Defensive systems are coached in to game plans, Rebounding is physical training, knowing who is shooting and what point in the game. These are nurtured traits not natural abilities.

To your point, does Traino not put Evans a lot closer to the basket then Bargs. Do you think Evans would have been leading our team in rebounds if he were playing beyond the perimeter on offense or even if he was shooting as many shoots as Bargs regardless of were he was on the floor. It has nothing to do with better, it has to do with roles.

I am not arguing with the fact Bargs does lack effort and instinct on the defensive side of things. If you guys were to say Andrea can't be coached effort and instinct I would agree. BUt I will argue that there is a coach and a team out there that can provide Andrea with the knowledge and experience to be a legitimate defender.
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