Who Should Start At PG For The Raptors?
Old 01-05-2010, 12:59 AM   #1 (permalink)
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It would be hard to imagine that Jose Calderon can take a month off the schedule and just step back into a starting role. And if starting, playing starterís minutes seems very unlikely at first.

But the numbers support a return of Jose Calderon to the starting line-up as soon as he is able. Jose Calderon certainly has the highest upside of any Raptors point guard.

And the supposedly better defense by Jack and Banks is not supported by the numbers.
Toronto Raptors Point Guard Dilemma: Jose Calderon vs Jarrett Jack vs Marcus Banks

From Basketball-reference.com

This Season - Points Given up per 100 possessions:
Marcus Banks 113
Jarrett Jack 116
Jose Calderon 117

Points Produced per 100 possessions:
Marcus Banks 108 (net minus 5)
Jarrett Jack 110 (net minus 6)
Jose Calderon 122 (net Plus 5)

Jack has a career net minus 5
Calderon has a career net plus 9

Who should be playing more minutes?
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Old 01-05-2010, 07:13 AM   #2 (permalink)
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My biggest concern is ensuring that Jose is 100 percent healthy. If he's not, then I don't know how effective he's going to be overall. I don't like to suggest that he's a total defensive liability, but when he's hurt that can certainly be the case, and then he also loses his edge as a scorer. And it's just depressing.

If he's 100 percent and gets himself into good form after the layoff, then maybe it's not a big problem. But Jack has earned a bigger role than what he had before the Jose downtime. I don't like the idea of squeezing him back into a part-time 2 guard and freewheeling scorer off the bench. Fewer minutes for Jose on most nights might keep him healthier as well.

Finally - defensive numbers applied to individual play don't mean a lot to me. Especially when spanning careers and then compared. I mean - Marcus Bank's career? There's a lot of apples and oranges in the comparisons.
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Old 01-05-2010, 07:31 AM   #3 (permalink)
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For now Jack should start, but eventually (4-5 games from now) if Jose is ok he should probably start.
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Old 01-05-2010, 08:59 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Jose should start. People have a perception of Jack's defence being better because Jose is usually playing at less than 100%. Nobody was making a deal about Jose's defence when we were playing the duo guard of Ford and Calderon because in all honesty, as long as Jose is 100% healthy, he will provide more rights than wrongs.

Last edited by gnarl; 01-05-2010 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 01-05-2010, 09:13 AM   #5 (permalink)
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haha do yourself a favour and takes Banks out of consideration for the starting spot hahahaha.
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Old 01-05-2010, 09:19 AM   #6 (permalink)
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don't we have 100 PG threads now?

bah!

I'll use this one as my official commenting on this subject thread.

Calderon, shouldn't, and won't start. Makes no sense. Frankly I don't know why it's being debated as nobody said he was going to start yet.

He's hurt. Period. He'll come back like all starters do, off the bench. Why fuck with a good rotation. Sadly, the one guy that will be hurt by his return is the one real feel good story of the year, Marcus Banks.

I argued in his favor in pre-season saying he was worth a look and that anything you can get from a guy getting his cash will be a plus, I think it's safe to say his aggressive defence on Chris PAul a couple weeks ago alone was enough to give him a pass. He's bringing his game every night, and he's keeping his mouth shut, and he cheers on the sidelines, and he hits opposing guards, and he makes some really stupid plays, but then busts his ass getting up on his man to make up for it which is all you can ask in Basketball because even Steve Nash tosses it into the crowd on occasion.

I really feel bad for the guy if he's sent back to Pine-beria.

As for Calderon. If and when he returns, he had better be 100%. If he isn't, or plays like he's hurt for more than 3-4 games, he's the back up for the year in my eyes. Enough is enough.

Now these are allllll if's. Jose has been a good little soldier on the bench, he cheers his mates on, he tries hard when he's in, so there nothing that says he can't return to his 2008 form, and I hope he does. But if he doesn't, it's nice knowing he's not the type to piss and moan about it.

Toronto, for all the silly press this situation is getting, is in a good position because of the healthy ego's of the players involved. I don't see any controversy no matter what the call is moving forward. It's all blue skies right now.




now..... if only we had a 2-guard, which, has been this teams dillemma since Alvin Freaking Robertson was deported!!!!!
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Old 01-05-2010, 09:41 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I agree. Calderon only starts if he's 100%. But I still find it unfair that everyone bashes him about his defence. Although he isn't a good defender, teams usually succeed when they're playing team defence, not individual. Sure there are great defensive players, KG, Kobe, Dwight...but even if they stop their man, it doesn't mean anything if the other 4 aren't playing D. Who in this league can guard Chris Paul? Deron Williams? Rajon Rondo? Not many. But the fact is, just because Jose is getting beat off the dribble constantly isn't the reason for Raptor losses. Lebron can get past anyone anytime he wants, but does that mean the Orlando loses to Cleveland? Nope. Still stay with the original scheme. When Jose is healthy, Jose as a starter, and Jack off the bench. Its better than way since Jack and Weems seem to play well with each other.
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Old 01-05-2010, 09:44 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Old 01-05-2010, 10:32 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Shall I comment on this thread ??? All I have to do is copy and paste all my comments nah ......lol.

I guess a simple no comment would do !

:bored:
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Old 01-05-2010, 11:14 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by gnarl View Post
Who in this league can guard Chris Paul? Deron Williams? Rajon Rondo? Not many.
How about the Jack/Banks combo that shut him down?
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Old 01-05-2010, 11:43 AM   #11 (permalink)
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i realize we've had an easier schedule since Jose's been out, but that still shouldn't discount the amount of confidence (dare i say, swagger) that Jack has brought to this team since he entered the starting lineup.
there is a difference in overall team attitude, passion, and grit ever since Jack took over the starting PG spot.

I am a jose fan, dont get me wrong, but the intangibles that jack brings to the game cant be measured in terms of overall statistics.
if you watch the games closely, you will notice the Raptors react to Jack's pressing nature and style of play. Ive seen more dives for balls, more talking, and team closeness in the past 3 weeks than i've seen all seson long.
sure, maybe its the team meetings or the team just recently gelling... but what if its more to do with JJ running the point?

there have been at least 3 occasions (in 3 seperate wins) Ive noticed when the game has been tight, and the opposition is slowly getting momentum, and Jack puts the team on his shoulder and attaks the basket - getting the bucket, stopping the opponents run, and getting the team calmed down again.
this is a different type of leadership. its a leadership by example, by action... its not about talk, its about showing it, and proving it on the court. and that is where JJ excels.
I love jose, but i have to look past feelings and politics and go with what works.
and JJ is what works.

Last edited by INSIDER; 01-05-2010 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 01-05-2010, 11:52 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by INSIDER View Post
i realize we've had an easier schedule since Jose's been out, but that still shouldn't discount the amount of confidence (dare i say, swagger) that Jack has brought to this team since he entered the starting lineup.
there is a difference in overall team attitude, passion, and grit ever since Jack took over the starting PG spot.

I am a jose fan, dont get me wrong, but the intangibles that jack brings to the game cant be measured in terms of overall statistics.
if you watch the games closely, you will notice the Raptors react to Jack's pressing nature and style of play. Ive seen more dives for balls, more talking, and team closeness in the past 3 weeks than i've seen all seson long.
sure, maybe its the team meetings or the team just recently gelling... but what if its more to do with JJ running the point?

there have been at least 3 occasions (in 3 seperate wins) Ive noticed when the game has been tight, and the opposition is slowly getting momentum, and Jack puts the team on his shoulder and attaks the basket - getting the bucket, stopping the opponents run, and getting the team calmed down again.
this is a different type of leadership. its a leadership by example, by action... its not about talk, its about showing it, and proving it on the court. and that is where JJ excels.
I love jose, but i have to look past feelings and politics and go with what works.
and JJ is what works.
Don't disagree with you, however Jose talks the most on this team. He is always talking on the bench, on offence ,on defence, in the locker room, in time outs. Hell the guy never shuts up lol ....i wonder some times whether his mates understand what the hell he is saying at times lol. He even wails away in hand language like some traffic cop in the middle of an intersection.
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Old 01-05-2010, 12:07 PM   #13 (permalink)
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He even wails away in hand language like some traffic cop in the middle of an intersection.
The problem is that he does this as opposing PG's are blowing by him.
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Old 01-05-2010, 12:07 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Jack should start and banks should be the back-up... and we should put Calderon on the block. Face it we have a better record with Calderon not playing, and if we do trade him we could get something pretty good in return and have his contract gone or let jack start and jose come off the bench but that would make him one of the most paid bench player in the league
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Old 01-05-2010, 12:23 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by INSIDER View Post
i realize we've had an easier schedule since Jose's been out, but that still shouldn't discount the amount of confidence (dare i say, swagger) that Jack has brought to this team since he entered the starting lineup.
there is a difference in overall team attitude, passion, and grit ever since Jack took over the starting PG spot.

I am a jose fan, dont get me wrong, but the intangibles that jack brings to the game cant be measured in terms of overall statistics.
if you watch the games closely, you will notice the Raptors react to Jack's pressing nature and style of play. Ive seen more dives for balls, more talking, and team closeness in the past 3 weeks than i've seen all seson long.
sure, maybe its the team meetings or the team just recently gelling... but what if its more to do with JJ running the point?

there have been at least 3 occasions (in 3 seperate wins) Ive noticed when the game has been tight, and the opposition is slowly getting momentum, and Jack puts the team on his shoulder and attaks the basket - getting the bucket, stopping the opponents run, and getting the team calmed down again.
this is a different type of leadership. its a leadership by example, by action... its not about talk, its about showing it, and proving it on the court. and that is where JJ excels.
I love jose, but i have to look past feelings and politics and go with what works.
and JJ is what works.
Well said. The Youngs Guns (Weems, Derozan, Amir) refer to Jack as the Father. They look up to him. Its no coincidence that these guys are the ones who hustle and bring energy to the floor every night. JJ provides more leadership and brings the intangibles to the floor that win games. No worries, by the end of the season JJ will be starting and finishing games.
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Old 01-05-2010, 12:50 PM   #16 (permalink)
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How about the Jack/Banks combo that shut him down?
Are you kidding me? Paul was injured for more than half that game and still almost put up a triple double against us. You're overestimating our guards
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Old 01-05-2010, 01:31 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Jack as a starter

Offensive rating 110
Defensive rating 116
Net rating of MINUS 6

Playing against
Paul(home)
Parker(home)
Harris(home)
Flynn(home)
Jennings(road)
Brooks(home)
Chalmers(road)
rafer(road)
Stuckey(home)
Stuckey(away)
Felton(home)
Rondo(road)

13 games in 27 days
7 games at home 5 on road(non of which are west coast teams)

Jose as a starter

Defensive rating 117
Offensive rating 122
net rating PLUS 5

Against:
Paul(road)
Nash(road)
Nash(home)
Parker(road)
Rose(home)
Rose(road)
Kidd(road)
D Williams(road)
Billups(road)
Bdiddy(road)
Mo Williams(home)
Westbrook(road)
Rafer(home)
Stucky(home)
Chalmers(home)
Rafer(home)
Ford(home)
Felton(road)
Rondo(road)
Arenas(home)
Bibby(road)
Arenas(road)

22 games 35 days
9 games at home 13 games on road(including 8 games on west coast/dallas trip)


No denying Jose faced tougher competition on a team looking to gel, on that competitions home court, having less down time between games, he still performed only 1 point worse per 100 possession but an ridiculous 12 points better offensively per 100 possessions.
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Old 01-05-2010, 02:05 PM   #18 (permalink)
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The problem is that he does this as opposing PG's are blowing by him.
Yes he does it in Spanish. All the blow byes past Jack are in English. But hell blinders are on because our 2,3,4,and 5 spot having been bailing him out. Jose and Jack are equal as both are bad on keeping pg's in front of them. Jack was getting toyed with against SA did you see the expression on his face lol. Tony schooled him.


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Originally Posted by Snooch View Post
Jack as a starter

Offensive rating 110
Defensive rating 116
Net rating of MINUS 6

Playing against
Paul(home)
Parker(home)
Harris(home)
Flynn(home)
Jennings(road)
Brooks(home)
Chalmers(road)
rafer(road)
Stuckey(home)
Stuckey(away)
Felton(home)
Rondo(road)

13 games in 27 days
7 games at home 5 on road(non of which are west coast teams)

Jose as a starter

Defensive rating 117
Offensive rating 122
net rating PLUS 5

Against:
Paul(road)
Nash(road)
Nash(home)
Parker(road)
Rose(home)
Rose(road)
Kidd(road)
D Williams(road)
Billups(road)
Bdiddy(road)
Mo Williams(home)
Westbrook(road)
Rafer(home)
Stucky(home)
Chalmers(home)
Rafer(home)
Ford(home)
Felton(road)
Rondo(road)
Arenas(home)
Bibby(road)
Arenas(road)

22 games 35 days
9 games at home 13 games on road(including 8 games on west coast/dallas trip)


No denying Jose faced tougher competition on a team looking to gel, on that competitions home court, having less down time between games, he still performed only 1 point worse per 100 possession but an ridiculous 12 points better offensively per 100 possessions.
Great post Snooch, however the time you spent on putting this together is all for not because too many on here just don't get it no matter how many times you bang them over the head.

Last edited by raptor123; 01-05-2010 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 01-05-2010, 02:08 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I love this dilemna
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Old 01-05-2010, 02:30 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Great post Snooch, however the time you spent on putting this together is all for not because too many on here just don't get it no matter how many times you bang them over the head.
Same goes for you guys not getting that those stats don't paint the whole picture. For example, Jose's offencive rating might have been 122 but what is his useage percentage within that offence? No one argues he's efficient but it doesn't benefit the team much if he's shooting a high percentage but only shooting 8 times a game.

You can't just pull out ORAT and DRAT scores and say Jose makes a bigger impact to his team..it doesn't work that way.
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