Where would Raps have been without Jose? - Page 3
Old 11-18-2012, 09:16 PM   #41 (permalink)
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The real reason has already been provided, although you might disagree with it: on a team lacking in people capable of creating the offence for themselves, the role of PG becomes a crucial one. Hence, assuming that anyone can get injured, the importance of Jose to this team is, in fact, higher than any other player on the roster save Lowry. That's my point, and unless we are all in favor of tanking this season as well, Jose is the most important player on the roster right now.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:18 PM   #42 (permalink)
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The real reason has already been provided, although you might disagree with it: on a team lacking in people capable of creating the offence for themselves, the role of PG becomes a crucial one. Hence, assuming that anyone can get injured, the importance of Jose to this team is, in fact, higher than any other player on the roster save Lowry. That's my point, and unless we are all in favor of tanking this season as well, Jose is the most important player on the roster right now.
If he's starting we're tanking and going nowhere fast. I like having him as a backup, but if a good deal can be had I'd rather see him traded.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:19 PM   #43 (permalink)
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The real reason has already been provided, although you might disagree with it: on a team lacking in people capable of creating the offence for themselves, the role of PG becomes a crucial one. Hence, assuming that anyone can get injured, the importance of Jose to this team is, in fact, higher than any other player on the roster save Lowry. That's my point, and unless we are all in favor of tanking this season as well, Jose is the most important player on the roster right now.
unless we can get the missing starter for him, which is what people wanted this summer. do you really think a backup pg is worth more than a starting 3? your whole thread is based on a false premise.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:25 PM   #44 (permalink)
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But you are NEVER going to get a starting 3 for a backup PG! Hence the whole "trade Jose for a starter" idea is based on a false premise. You can possibly get a starter for Bargnani, although even that is not a guarantee.

And on a talent-depleted team like ours, I'd rather have a team player capable of making others better.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:27 PM   #45 (permalink)
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But you are NEVER going to get a starting 3 for a backup PG! Hence the whole "trade Jose for a starter" idea is based on a false premise. You can possibly get a starter for Bargnani, although even that is not a guarantee.

And on a talent-depleted team like ours, I'd rather have a team player capable of making others better.
Name me one person that has stated we could get a starting SF for Jose alone?
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:29 PM   #46 (permalink)
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All I want is some recognition and some contrition. And yes, him re-signing this coming off-season and retiring as a Raptor, with Ocho proudly hanging from those bare basketball rafters.
Thanks for my daily dose of laughter.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:30 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Oh, the real culprits are coming out of the woodwork - excellent.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:32 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Oh, the real culprits are coming out of the woodwork - excellent.
Culprits of what? Lol
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:34 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Name me one person that has stated we could get a starting SF for Jose alone?
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Amnesty him giving us 21Mil to sign Batum + Gordon

Lowry
Gordon
Batum
Bargnani
Valanciunas




Then trade Derozan, Davis, Kleiza for solid bench depth.
See above.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:36 PM   #50 (permalink)
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See above.
If we could have in anyway done that, in a heartbeat.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:38 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Guys, haven't we talked about acquiring one of these all-star/slightly below all-star calibre small forwards for years? It hasn't happened because those teams don't want Jose/Bargs/Young guys. If they did it would have happened already. Maybe because it's Toronto they try to gauge us or maybe they're just not good enough to get those guys in return. Or maybe, just maybe, we've gotten some offers and BC is just a shit GM.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:38 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Jose makes others better alright. Including every opposing pg.

I do love him as a backup and possible trade chip however.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:50 PM   #53 (permalink)
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At the deadline, if we have real possibilities off getting Playoffs, he should stay in Toronto.

And if the Playoffs are far, trade him for something good for us.

Then, in the offseason, sign him again with a reasonable salary. Excelent backup for Lowry

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Old 11-18-2012, 10:01 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Mike idk if you understand that Jose is our biggest trading asset, especially now that his stock is high. He's a player who is a back up to our best player and people during the summer were arguing to trade him to try and fill our weakest position, whether by himself or in a package.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:10 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Mike idk if you understand that Jose is our biggest trading asset, especially now that his stock is high. He's a player who is a back up to our best player and people during the summer were arguing to trade him to try and fill our weakest position, whether by himself or in a package.


Our biggest trade assets in order : Valanciunas, Derozan, Calderon. Bargs would be 2nd or third on that list but he's shitting the bed. Calderon alone isn't getting us much. And why exactly is his stock high right now?

The only way you get anything for Calderon is in a package or getting a third team involved. The further along in the season we go the less we get for him. Who's going to give up much for a 31yr old PG who is a FA in a few months?

Last edited by jeffb; 11-18-2012 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:23 PM   #56 (permalink)
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I doubt we win a single game with Lucas running the point.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:35 PM   #57 (permalink)
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There is a problem with doing conterfactual analysis, like "what happens if Jose is gone?"

I would have added this to the discussion immediately, because it can't be avoided.

If Jose was traded...

1 - the sane people wanted him traded in a package, so there would have been a substantial upgrade at SF coming back. That might have improved our offense given how pure shit Landry Fields was during early games.

2- I doubt JL3 would have been the primary back-up. Many of the trade proposals for an SF were pre-draft, especially in the case of some one like Rudy Gay, Iggy or Deng. Some saw the move as a springboard to attracting Nash. If Jose had been traded in that type of scenario, it's likely the team would have made a move for somebody like Earl or C.J. Watson. They never would have signed Landry Fields; instead would have had a better back-up than JL3.

3 - as I am getting at in #2, none of these moves were in isolation. So, if you subtract Jose, you have to remember that people were expecting an upgrade somewhere else. Those upgrades might have helped us win other games we lost.


To be clear, I like Jose as a back-up/spot starter if he is on a reasonable contract. But, if some of the proposals made this summer had happened, I think the Raps could just as easily be 3-7 or better, due to other upgrades and earlier wins.

Let's do a hypothetical.

If my memory is correct, some proposed a deal something like ....Jose+ ED + 8th pick for Rudy Gay. Now, if that happened at the draft, then Raps would never have gone after Landry Fields. They wouldn't have money and would have been saving the amnesty to use on Amir if they needed it to create a bigger offer for Nash. As we know now, they would have failed on Nash and took the Lowry deal in exchange for our future pick. So, the Raps are left with a starting unit of Lowry, Derozan, Gay, Bargs, JV. We would have lost Jose and Ross, and maybe Ed if Memphis wanted him, but we gain Rudy. And BC likely would have used spare change on a better back-up than JL3. He wouldn't have had $6 mill for Landry, but he still could have had some change left after failing to get Nash and keeping Amir.

Gay logs huge minutes for Memphis, so he easily would have covered some of the minutes our second unit plays. That alone would have improved the offense and avoided some ridiculous rotation decisions. To be honest, given DD's improvements, I think him and Gay would have been a potent enough wing combo, working with Lowry, to win all 3 of the Raps first games before Lowry gets hurt. We probably start 3-0. The team might have stolen 2 additional games, as well. That hypo team could easily be 5-5 right now, with a higher ceiling than the current team, when the core is all healthy.


TLDR; .....when you do these counterfactual analysis involving taking something out, you have to keep in mind what's coming in and the type of impact it would make. And if your response is that "Rudy was never a realistic option for Jose", it wasn't Jose alone. The sane people who entertained trading Jose, realized that he would probably be packaged with the 8th pick and a prospect to get a quality SF.

Last edited by Bill Haverchuck; 11-18-2012 at 10:40 PM.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:45 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Jose makes others better alright. Including every opposing pg.
Not really sure if that's fair to say (if we're talking about THIS season).

Nelson: 8 pts, 9 assists, 3-13 shooting
Rondo: 6 pts, 20 assists, 3-4 shooting (fair enough)
Hill: 18 pts, 2 assists, 8-20 shooting
Williams: 17 pts, 14 assists, 6-16 shooting
Holiday: 16 pts, 5 assists, 6-11 shooting

Jose actually outplayed every one of those guys as the starter with the exception of Rondo. And none of them really went crazy.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:52 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Our biggest trade assets in order : Valanciunas, Derozan, Calderon. Bargs would be 2nd or third on that list but he's shitting the bed. Calderon alone isn't getting us much. And why exactly is his stock high right now?

The only way you get anything for Calderon is in a package or getting a third team involved. The further along in the season we go the less we get for him. Who's going to give up much for a 31yr old PG who is a FA in a few months?
Uhhhh... maybe a team who needs a good veteran PG or backup PG?

Think the Lakers wouldn't like him there backing up Nash?

How about in OKC spelling Westbrook (or letting him play off the ball)?

In MEM backing up Conley?

In CHI running the show until Rose is ready to take over full-time again?

As a steadying influence in CHA?

Maybe in GS as well?
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:15 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Our biggest trade assets in order : Valanciunas, Derozan, Calderon. Bargs would be 2nd or third on that list but he's shitting the bed. Calderon alone isn't getting us much. And why exactly is his stock high right now?

The only way you get anything for Calderon is in a package or getting a third team involved. The further along in the season we go the less we get for him. Who's going to give up much for a 31yr old PG who is a FA in a few months?
Realistic trade asset. We're not trading Val or Demar, Bargs would be hard to get rid of.

Why is his stock so high? This past week he got a triple double and two very high assist games, he just proved he can still ball and an expiring contract that can contribute is a nice trade asset.

When did I say by himself? I said or in a package. No matter how you slice it he's the only one that can be trade bait. Add Ross and/or Davis in, you can get something nice.
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