when will we see .500 again? - Page 3
Old 11-10-2013, 09:51 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Yeah, except if the team gets younger and we get some picks back we will have way more valuable players than right now. So it's more like putting all your eggs in the trade, FA, and draft basket. Which I'd say isn't a bad idea.
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Old 11-10-2013, 09:54 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Yeah, except if the team gets younger and we get some picks back we will have way more valuable players than right now. I'm pretty sure I've explained this to you already.
The team is the 6th youngest in the league as it is. Getting a little younger and having a pick or two doesn't guarantee us more valuable players then we have now. Unless you know what players/picks we'd be getting. Do you know?
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Old 11-10-2013, 10:03 AM   #43 (permalink)
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The team is the 6th youngest in the league as it is. Getting a little younger and having a pick or two doesn't guarantee us more valuable players then we have now. Unless you know what players/picks we'd be getting. Do you know?
By young, I mean players on rookie contracts and such. Right now that number is skewed because we have a bunch of guys at 24-28 which is right around their prime meaning we have little room to improve and we have no real vets on this team: Novak is our oldest guy at 30 I think.
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Old 11-10-2013, 10:05 AM   #44 (permalink)
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By young, I mean players on rookie contracts and such. Right now that number is skewed because we have a bunch of guys at 24-28 which is right around their prime meaning we have little room to improve and we have no real vets on this team: Novak is our oldest guy at 30 I think.
Point is, it doesn't guarantee us more valuable players like you seem to think. Shitty to mediocre players on Rookie contracts aren't valuable. What do you think we can get for Ross or Acy right now?
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Old 11-10-2013, 11:16 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Look at the Atlantic standings today! A complete reverse of what most were predicting for this season. I realize this is probably not going to last, but it's still funny.
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Old 11-10-2013, 11:53 AM   #46 (permalink)
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I was only following your logic. Which was so simplistic that there are no lines to read between, as much as i'd love to. Moremilk is already calling for a tank next year. We both know that won't get it done. Lebron said more than two, more than three, more than four. That's exactly how this team needs to think when it comes to losing.

I'll say this much, you guys are dreaming if you think they can tank the next two years and then make the playoffs. You do realize tanking requires getting worse? That would be after 3 years of "improper" tanking. This team would seriously risk becoming an absolute shit show. The only way a tank works is if they develop a good amount of the talent that is here while not being able to get over the hump most nights, and playing end of bench guys to finish the season. Just throwing away this season and next, and forcing whatever talent is here as a result of previous tanks to eat shit for two years, is nothing more than the definition of ineptitude. This team already has a bad reputation. Worsening that will not pay off handsomely.

case in point would be the Washington Wizardsthey have Not won more than 29 games since 2007 2008 they had a number of top 5 picks and they're still s***** ass team. they got some good pics like John Wall for example but they still can't get that winning culture together at least not this early in the year anyways so if you guys think that us losing 4-3 for 5 years and gambling on a lottery pickis worth multiple seasons of losing then you guys are just crazy. it should be painfully obvious already that the Utah Jazz are going to taNk a helluva lot better than we ever could even if we try our absolute hardest. We already have 3 wIns on the season....so there goes that tank
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Old 11-10-2013, 12:37 PM   #47 (permalink)
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They never traded for Brand, but I digress.

Holiday was an All-Star last year.

If only championship lever players grew on trees, eh?
holiday was an all star, but he was a magloire type all star who will never be one again. A good player, but not one to truly stand out. Hence they traded him and many thought it was a good trade.
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Old 11-10-2013, 12:41 PM   #48 (permalink)
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WRONG! We'd have the cap space from Gay and Lowry's salary.
we would not have meaningful cap space. Not until fields expires, having 6-7M of cap space is the same as having the MLE now. To have cap space is to have 12M+ and the only way we could achieve that would be to get rid of everybody but amir/demar/ross/jv. Then we would have max cap space.

Of course, the above scenario is what "tankers" want - so the only difference between us would be that I feel in that case we would suck and get a high draft pick and you guys think we'd be better than we are now.

However, getting rid of gay/lowry/fields and all the bench guys outside ross is a major rebuild, wouldn't you agree?
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Old 11-10-2013, 01:04 PM   #49 (permalink)
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we would not have meaningful cap space. Not until fields expires, having 6-7M of cap space is the same as having the MLE now. To have cap space is to have 12M+ and the only way we could achieve that would be to get rid of everybody but amir/demar/ross/jv. Then we would have max cap space.

Of course, the above scenario is what "tankers" want - so the only difference between us would be that I feel in that case we would suck and get a high draft pick and you guys think we'd be better than we are now.

However, getting rid of gay/lowry/fields and all the bench guys outside ross is a major rebuild, wouldn't you agree?

Gay and Lowrys salary are almost 24M. Not meaningful?
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Old 11-10-2013, 01:31 PM   #50 (permalink)
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we would not have meaningful cap space. Not until fields expires, having 6-7M of cap space is the same as having the MLE now. To have cap space is to have 12M+ and the only way we could achieve that would be to get rid of everybody but amir/demar/ross/jv. Then we would have max cap space.
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Gay and Lowrys salary are almost 24M. Not meaningful?
if we got rid of gay and lowry, and renounced the cap holds of gray, augustine, pietrus, and telfair, we would lose more than $37 million off of a total of $78 million in salary and holds for the 2014-15 season, leaving about $40 million in committed salary for 8 players (per shamsports). the cap this year was $58.68 million. so that's about $18 million shy of the cap, and i'm sure it will change a bit next year.

amir and hansborough are also only partially guaranteed next year, but i don't know how much is guaranteed and i highly doubt that the raps would ditch either one of them.

obviously, if we brought back any salary in a gay/lowry deal, which we would almost certainly have to do, we would have less than that $18 million in cap space.


http://data.shamsports.com/content/p...es/raptors.jsp

http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/rap...tml#post812076

Last edited by 'trane; 11-10-2013 at 01:36 PM. Reason: added a quote and a link
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Old 11-10-2013, 01:35 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Gay and Lowrys salary are almost 24M. Not meaningful?
not sure you fully understands how cap space works, we are 15M or so OVER the cap space now. Minus 24M we would only be 9M over, but Ross, Demar, Amir and JV would get salary increases (somewhat compensated by the increase in cap space level though). Right now we have the full MLE to spend, which is the equivalent of almost 7M in cap space. So just by getting rid of lowry/gay, we'd get 3M in cap space - that's fairly meaningless in the grand scheme.

To truly get cap sapce, as myself and 'trane mentioned, we'd have to shed pretty much everybody on the bench too. Which is, in other words, a major rebuild. We'd be left with 4-5 players from this current team.
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Old 11-10-2013, 01:37 PM   #52 (permalink)
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obviously, if we brought back any salary in a gay/lowry deal, which we would almost certainly have to do, we would have less than that $18 million in cap space.
no, the theory was that we could let both walk (assuming gay doesn't opt in), so we'd get nothing back. LX's theory is that by subtracting those two, we could become a better team, same as us minus bargnani.
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Old 11-10-2013, 01:42 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
not sure you fully understands how cap space works, we are 15M or so OVER the cap space now. Minus 24M we would only be 9M over, but Ross, Demar, Amir and JV would get salary increases (somewhat compensated by the increase in cap space level though). Right now we have the full MLE to spend, which is the equivalent of almost 7M in cap space. So just by getting rid of lowry/gay, we'd get 3M in cap space - that's fairly meaningless in the grand scheme.

To truly get cap sapce, as myself and 'trane mentioned, we'd have to shed pretty much everybody on the bench too. Which is, in other words, a major rebuild. We'd be left with 4-5 players from this current team.
your numbers don't really make sense. i don't agree with you. losing gray, augustine, pietrus, q-rich and telfair along with gay and lowry is not shedding everybody on the bench. and that nets us $18 million as long as we don't take salary back.

not to mention that our bench blows anyways.
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Old 11-10-2013, 01:44 PM   #54 (permalink)
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not sure you fully understands how cap space works, we are 15M or so OVER the cap space now.
no, we're more like $11.4 million over the cap. and everything changes in the offseason when cap holds kick in at 150% of the salary for several guys and we have to decide what to do with that and with the options we have.
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Old 11-10-2013, 01:45 PM   #55 (permalink)
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no, the theory was that we could let both walk (assuming gay doesn't opt in), so we'd get nothing back. LX's theory is that by subtracting those two, we could become a better team, same as us minus bargnani.
i'm not making a point in reference to you or lx's arguments. i am clarifying the numbers a bit.
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Old 11-10-2013, 01:50 PM   #56 (permalink)
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if we got rid of gay and lowry, and renounced the cap holds of gray, augustine, pietrus, and telfair, we would lose more than $37 million off of a total of $78 million in salary and holds for the 2014-15 season, leaving about $40 million in committed salary for 8 players (per shamsports). the cap this year was $58.68 million. so that's about $18 million shy of the cap, and i'm sure it will change a bit next year.

amir and hansborough are also only partially guaranteed next year, but i don't know how much is guaranteed and i highly doubt that the raps would ditch either one of them.

obviously, if we brought back any salary in a gay/lowry deal, which we would almost certainly have to do, we would have less than that $18 million in cap space.


ShamSports.com: Toronto Raptors salary information

http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/rap...tml#post812076
The premise in the original thread was a situation where Gay and Lowry walked at the end of the season rather than them being traded.

Also, since Pietrus and Telfair were on expiring contracts last year, how is there a cap hold for them?
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Old 11-10-2013, 01:58 PM   #57 (permalink)
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The premise in the original thread was a situation where Gay and Lowry walked at the end of the season rather than them being traded.

Also, since Pietrus and Telfair were on expiring contracts last year, how is there a cap hold for them?
i was hoping danh might chime in on this one. i know they were both waived, and neither is on the roster, but they both show up in sham's latest numbers. i assume we did not renounce the rights to either pietrus or telfair, so they still have a hold. it's pretty much irrelevant, though, as they will be shed at year's end without a problem.

it doesn't really matter much how gay/lowry leave. my point is that they have way more than the $6-7 million in space that you talked about and they have way more players than you named.
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Old 11-10-2013, 02:19 PM   #58 (permalink)
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i was hoping danh might chime in on this one. i know they were both waived, and neither is on the roster, but they both show up in sham's latest numbers. i assume we did not renounce the rights to either pietrus or telfair, so they still have a hold. it's pretty much irrelevant, though, as they will be shed at year's end without a problem.

it doesn't really matter much how gay/lowry leave. my point is that they have way more than the $6-7 million in space that you talked about and they have way more players than you named.
I guess the last part of your comment was meant for moremilk. I didn't mention $6-7 mill or the number of players.
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Old 11-10-2013, 02:33 PM   #59 (permalink)
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I guess the last part of your comment was meant for moremilk. I didn't mention $6-7 mill or the number of players.
sorry, ya. got my responses mixed up.
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Old 11-10-2013, 05:12 PM   #60 (permalink)
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why did you reply to me, I don't disagree with anything you say there, the argument was about how to get rid of gay/lowry if we so choose. Given their contract status (and gay's salary), it's really difficult/impossible unless we resign them first to a good contract (assuming gay decides to not use his eto).

LX argues that we could, in theory, let both walk for free, and become a better team. Personally, I think that's crazy - given the fact that we'd not be able to replace them with anything. Even assuming that fields and buycks would do better because of bonding and what not, we'd have a core of JV/amir/Demar/Ross to build a championship around with no cap space ... let's be real here.
my bad. wanted to add a reply and accidentally quoted yours.
I think we can get something for Lowry but Gay will be difficult to move for a good return. If we let Gay walk away we pretty much gave up Ed for nearly nothing which is a shame.

Last edited by Tommy C; 11-10-2013 at 05:18 PM.
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