when will we see .500 again? - Page 2
Old 11-09-2013, 08:59 PM   #21 (permalink)
LOG
is pounding the rock!

Senior Member
 
LOG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Toronto
Posts: 8,111
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
I was only following your logic. Which was so simplistic that there are no lines to read between, as much as i'd love to. Moremilk is already calling for a tank next year. We both know that won't get it done. Lebron said more than two, more than three, more than four. That's exactly how this team needs to think when it comes to losing.

I'll say this much, you guys are dreaming if you think they can tank the next two years and then make the playoffs. You do realize tanking requires getting worse? That would be after 3 years of "improper" tanking. This team would seriously risk becoming an absolute shit show. The only way a tank works is if they develop a good amount of the talent that is here while not being able to get over the hump most nights, and playing end of bench guys to finish the season. Just throwing away this season and next, and forcing whatever talent is here as a result of previous tanks to eat shit for two years, is nothing more than the definition of ineptitude. This team already has a bad reputation. Worsening that will not pay off handsomely.
Trade Rudy, Lowry for picks/young players, tank this year and you have yourself a team with tons of cap and developing talent
LOG is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2013, 09:11 PM   #22 (permalink)
LX
with pink peppercorns

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,637
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOG View Post
Trade Rudy, Lowry for picks/young players, tank this year and you have yourself a team with tons of cap and developing talent
I can live with that if it comes to that, makes good sense at the time, and is possible. Right now I'll watch the games and see what options come into play. It's entirely possible that they get better after trading Gay and Lowry. If they still have picks from a trade then it's cool. Giddyup and go on that horse.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2013, 09:15 PM   #23 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,275
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
I can live with that if it comes to that, makes good sense at the time, and is possible. Right now I'll watch the games and see what options come into play. It's entirely possible that they get better after trading Gay and Lowry. If they still have picks from a trade then it's cool. Giddyup and go on that horse.
You can't really trade Lowry and gay as they are expiring (until gay exercises his option). You can't replace them either, since we have no cap space. We can either resign them and hope to trade them later, or resign to keep them, or let them walk. None of the above will make this team any better
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2013, 09:21 PM   #24 (permalink)
LX
with pink peppercorns

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,637
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
You can't really trade Lowry and gay as they are expiring (until gay exercises his option). You can't replace them either, since we have no cap space. We can either resign them and hope to trade them later, or resign to keep them, or let them walk. None of the above will make this team any better
This team could get better with one or both guys gone. Don't make me look for posts where you said the same sort of stuff regarding Bargnani.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2013, 09:36 PM   #25 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,275
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
This team could get better with one or both guys gone. Don't make me look for posts where you said the same sort of stuff regarding Bargnani.
Not sure what you are referring to, but if it's about the whole addition by subtraction thing, then I do stand by what I said. If you think that shedding guy and Lowry for nothing would make this team better, that's your choice of opinion. I doubt many share that point of view though. Unless I missed what you were trying to say there ...
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2013, 10:19 PM   #26 (permalink)
LX
with pink peppercorns

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,637
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
Not sure what you are referring to, but if it's about the whole addition by subtraction thing, then I do stand by what I said. If you think that shedding guy and Lowry for nothing would make this team better, that's your choice of opinion. I doubt many share that point of view though. Unless I missed what you were trying to say there ...
There can be addition by subtraction, there can be a team bonding and fighting that much harder, there can be players lower in the pecking order getting better and taking advantage of an opportunity.

It's not an opinion. It's reality. Teams can get better by playing better as a team due to any number of factors. It's called competitive team sports. That's something that can happen by definition.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2013, 11:34 PM   #27 (permalink)
If I ruled the world...

Sippin' On Myself
 
KoolAid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Yes
Posts: 3,615
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
There can be addition by subtraction, there can be a team bonding and fighting that much harder, there can be players lower in the pecking order getting better and taking advantage of an opportunity.

It's not an opinion. It's reality. Teams can get better by playing better as a team due to any number of factors. It's called competitive team sports. That's something that can happen by definition.
So you want a team even less talented than the current one to get thrashed by Miami? For what purpose? I think you and some others overvalue how much making the playoffs helps your team. Remember Philadelphia a couple years back? Similar situation: overpaid SF, young SG needing improvement, young player they thought could be an all star in Jrue Holiday, the rest of the team was decent too (better than ours). They got smashed by Miami in the first round. That didn't make any free agents find Philly more attractive suddenly, and now they're tanking. We could save ourselves 2 years of rebuilding if we skip right to the tanking rather than hoping we can make something out of a roster we all know deep down will never contend.
KoolAid is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2013, 11:46 PM   #28 (permalink)
payin Dwyane Wade

Senior Member
 
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4,435
Representing:
Default

The preaching about how and when to tank that derails and ruins every thread is getting really fucking old fast.
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2013, 11:54 PM   #29 (permalink)
landry fields forever

Administrator

 
Acie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Living in a van down by the river
Posts: 21,599
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoolAid View Post
So you want a team even less talented than the current one to get thrashed by Miami? For what purpose? I think you and some others overvalue how much making the playoffs helps your team. Remember Philadelphia a couple years back? Similar situation: overpaid SF, young SG needing improvement, young player they thought could be an all star in Jrue Holiday, the rest of the team was decent too (better than ours). They got smashed by Miami in the first round. That didn't make any free agents find Philly more attractive suddenly, and now they're tanking. We could save ourselves 2 years of rebuilding if we skip right to the tanking rather than hoping we can make something out of a roster we all know deep down will never contend.
So they kind of tanked/sucked, got the 2nd overall pick, made the first round the next season and got smashed, made the 2nd round the next year and then failed to build on it by making a horrible trade for Bynum and took a step back and are tanking again. Sounds like a great plan.
Acie is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2013, 12:13 AM   #30 (permalink)
If I ruled the world...

Sippin' On Myself
 
KoolAid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Yes
Posts: 3,615
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acie View Post
So they kind of tanked/sucked, got the 2nd overall pick, made the first round the next season and got smashed, made the 2nd round the next year and then failed to build on it by making a horrible trade for Bynum and took a step back and are tanking again. Sounds like a great plan.
Are you agreeing with me? My point was that Philadelphia didn't build properly and we should do things differently.
KoolAid is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2013, 01:09 AM   #31 (permalink)
is a free agent

Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,790
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
You can't really trade Lowry and gay as they are expiring (until gay exercises his option). You can't replace them either, since we have no cap space. We can either resign them and hope to trade them later, or resign to keep them, or let them walk. None of the above will make this team any better
Gay is a shooter, and used to be a pretty good one in MEM in his 2-3 yr, but he had 2 big men who played down low. I just don't know if this team can tolerate him and DD. Also, if we had a PG who could distribute the ball better and create good looks for them two we won't need to see iso ball all the time. Now, I know someone will jump and say but he averages more than 5 APG, but his court vision is limited and getting other players involved is just isn't his forte.
Tommy C is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2013, 02:07 AM   #32 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,275
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu View Post
The preaching about how and when to tank that derails and ruins every thread is getting really fucking old fast.
um, this IS a thread about tanking, so not sure what you expected
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2013, 02:12 AM   #33 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,275
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy C View Post
Gay is a shooter, and used to be a pretty good one in MEM in his 2-3 yr, but he had 2 big men who played down low. I just don't know if this team can tolerate him and DD. Also, if we had a PG who could distribute the ball better and create good looks for them two we won't need to see iso ball all the time. Now, I know someone will jump and say but he averages more than 5 APG, but his court vision is limited and getting other players involved is just isn't his forte.
why did you reply to me, I don't disagree with anything you say there, the argument was about how to get rid of gay/lowry if we so choose. Given their contract status (and gay's salary), it's really difficult/impossible unless we resign them first to a good contract (assuming gay decides to not use his eto).

LX argues that we could, in theory, let both walk for free, and become a better team. Personally, I think that's crazy - given the fact that we'd not be able to replace them with anything. Even assuming that fields and buycks would do better because of bonding and what not, we'd have a core of JV/amir/Demar/Ross to build a championship around with no cap space ... let's be real here.
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2013, 02:16 AM   #34 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,275
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acie View Post
So they kind of tanked/sucked, got the 2nd overall pick, made the first round the next season and got smashed, made the 2nd round the next year and then failed to build on it by making a horrible trade for Bynum and took a step back and are tanking again. Sounds like a great plan.
they never really tanked, they just sucked. They also badly overestimated their team twice (with the brand and bynum trades). Even if those trades didn't backfire, that wasn't a championship team - they never even had an all star level player outside maybe AI.

It's not really about tanking anyway, it's about getting those championship level players. We have none and no prospects with the current team outside maybe JV. We're not getting them through trades, so what options do we have? Hope that we'll be able to draft them in the 10-20 range like Indiana did (major luck) or try to get them through draft (still have to be lucky, but odds are a level of magnitude or two higher).
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2013, 08:56 AM   #35 (permalink)
landry fields forever

Administrator

 
Acie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Living in a van down by the river
Posts: 21,599
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KoolAid View Post
Are you agreeing with me? My point was that Philadelphia didn't build properly and we should do things differently.
Not too sure what your point is.

Tank until you get it right?
Acie is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2013, 08:57 AM   #36 (permalink)
landry fields forever

Administrator

 
Acie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Living in a van down by the river
Posts: 21,599
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
they never really tanked, they just sucked. They also badly overestimated their team twice (with the brand and bynum trades). Even if those trades didn't backfire, that wasn't a championship team - they never even had an all star level player outside maybe AI.

It's not really about tanking anyway, it's about getting those championship level players. We have none and no prospects with the current team outside maybe JV. We're not getting them through trades, so what options do we have? Hope that we'll be able to draft them in the 10-20 range like Indiana did (major luck) or try to get them through draft (still have to be lucky, but odds are a level of magnitude or two higher).
They never traded for Brand, but I digress.

Holiday was an All-Star last year.

If only championship lever players grew on trees, eh?
Acie is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2013, 09:13 AM   #37 (permalink)
doesn't care where LeBron plays. Or Melo.

OY!!
 
niggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Loch Ness
Posts: 2,738
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
why did you reply to me, I don't disagree with anything you say there, the argument was about how to get rid of gay/lowry if we so choose. Given their contract status (and gay's salary), it's really difficult/impossible unless we resign them first to a good contract (assuming gay decides to not use his eto).

LX argues that we could, in theory, let both walk for free, and become a better team. Personally, I think that's crazy - given the fact that we'd not be able to replace them with anything. Even assuming that fields and buycks would do better because of bonding and what not, we'd have a core of JV/amir/Demar/Ross to build a championship around with no cap space ... let's be real here.
WRONG! We'd have the cap space from Gay and Lowry's salary.
niggles is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2013, 09:34 AM   #38 (permalink)
and that's the bottom line, cause JV said so!!!

This is how U(jiri) do it
 
Carlos Danger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Halifax
Posts: 3,910
Representing:
Default

That's IF Gay opts out. Big if.

and you can't put all your eggs in the FA basket.
Carlos Danger is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2013, 09:38 AM   #39 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummomd so people stop whining

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 73,185
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos Danger View Post
That's IF Gay opts out. Big if.

and you can't put all your eggs in the FA OR DRAFT basket.
jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2013, 09:49 AM   #40 (permalink)
If I ruled the world...

Sippin' On Myself
 
KoolAid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Yes
Posts: 3,615
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acie View Post
Not too sure what your point is.

Tank until you get it right?
They made the playoffs twice in a weak eastern conference. It's much better now and unless the opposing team's star gets injured in the middle of our series (i.e. Rose) we're not even going to sniff the second round.

My point is not to bother trying to make the playoffs with a team that can't win a series against one of the top 4 seeds.
KoolAid is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24