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-   -   What's hurt this team more? (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/whats-hurt-team-more-19432.html)

Claudius 02-22-2011 11:20 AM

What's hurt this team more?
 
So, I was looking at some 'successful' teams and there seems to be some some-what obvious patterns.

Teams will capitalize on assets (see Ray Allen being traded) and now Carmelo Anthony being dealt for assets that can be moved.

Or teams make smart draft decisions. The Spurs are the golden boys of choosing late in the first round and always seem to find some sort of a 'player'.

Have we ever had a 2nd round pick that's been successful here? Glen Davis and Marc Gasol are both 2nd round (mid 2nd) picks that I'd LOVE to have here.

So what's 'hurt' this team more? Not doing well in capitalizing on assets (VC, Bosh)? Not drafting well in the first round (late)? Not drafting well in the 2nd round? (Adding pieces possibly to Bosh etc.)

You can choose multiple options in the poll.

Ligeia 02-22-2011 11:29 AM

They have traded most 2nd round picks. Every year, they talk about wanting to buy a late 1st round pick but always say the asking price was too high (which I think is silly because Colangelo seems to get cash considerations in just about every deal).

I think what has hurt the most is that they have had to do a full rebuild, top to bottom, every time their top player has left. McGrady and Bosh left as, more or less, free agents, and they got nothing in the Carter trade.

fancylad 02-22-2011 11:43 AM

the Carter trade really yielded minimum returns. You look at what some of these teams get for their superstars who want out, and holy shit we got next to nothing in comparison.

Late drafting has been a concern as well for sure. I don't know if you can say which has been the 'biggest' contribution to our sucktitude. It's a combination of all of the above.

I'd say our drafting in the first round has been decent enough though.

idream 02-22-2011 11:45 AM

i blame drafting
you got arujo , joey grahm . both top 10 picks that didnt become anything special .
just imagine if we drafted alrdige instead of bargani . we would of had a good center piece to build around


BRING BACK GRUNWARD :)
he did a decent job drafting !

Acie 02-22-2011 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by idream (Post 511756)
i blame drafting
you got arujo , joey grahm . both top 10 picks that didnt become anything special .
just imagine if we drafted alrdige instead of bargani . we would of had a good center piece to build around


BRING BACK GRUNWARD :)
he did a decent job drafting !

Graham was taken 16th overall.

Let's bring Grunwald back so he can draft stalwarts like Michael Bradley, Chris Jefferies and Aleksandar Radojevic.

powerfulpanda 02-22-2011 12:02 PM

i think its got to be 1st round drafting by far, because if we drafted well, the no returns we got for carter wouldn't have stung so much.

coulda had iggy instead of arujo, granger instead of joey graham
and well of course there's bargnani

idream 02-22-2011 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acie (Post 511759)
Graham was taken 16th overall.

Let's bring Grunwald back so he can draft stalwarts like Michael Bradley, Chris Jefferies and Aleksandar Radojevic.


he also drafted vince , t mac , camby :dancing:

fancylad 02-22-2011 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by idream (Post 511770)
he also drafted vince , t mac , camby :dancing:

no he didn't.

Camby and Mcgrady were picked by Isiah.

idream 02-22-2011 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fancylad (Post 511771)
no he didn't.

Camby and Mcgrady were picked by Isiah.

yea i know though i would of got away with it


stop busting my balls :sigh:

b55bgc 02-22-2011 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerfulpanda (Post 511769)
i think its got to be 1st round drafting by far, because if we drafted well, the no returns we got for carter wouldn't have stung so much.

coulda had iggy instead of arujo, granger instead of joey graham
and well of course there's bargnani

I still find it hilarious that people dont give Bargnani credit. he is one of the top centres in the league for scoring. He does lack in the defensive side. But how many centres out there lack in the offensive side.

He was a great first round draft pick. Its too bad that bosh hindered his development for so long.

Claudius 02-22-2011 12:28 PM

Wait, huh? Bosh hindered who's development? How?

Also, I'd argue not picking up solid talent in the 2nd round has hurt us. For all the times I hear how we're scouring the globe for talent, we're looking far and wide we've never really found anything worth keeping.

The only player I could think of that we got lucky on was Jamario Moon. On a walk on (essentially) that was useful for us.

fancylad 02-22-2011 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claudius (Post 511793)
Wait, huh? Bosh hindered who's development? How?

Also, I'd argue not picking up solid talent in the 2nd round has hurt us. For all the times I hear how we're scouring the globe for talent, we're looking far and wide we've never really found anything worth keeping.

The only player I could think of that we got lucky on was Jamario Moon. On a walk on (essentially) that was useful for us.

Not that this has to do with drafting, but scouting got it right Colangelo's first year with Parker and Garbo. Garbajosa was a VERY positive pickup. If only that stupid injury didn't ruin his career.

highonpsi 02-22-2011 12:37 PM

3 in the Key - Raptors' Game-Day Preview vs. Bobcats - Raptors HQ

Quote:

For myself and other Raptors' fans, the Bosh wound was ripped open again late last night after hearing about the details of the Nuggets-Knicks trade. Here was a situation akin to that of the Raps with Bosh last year, and this time, the team that held the superstar, refused to be held for ransom, ensuring they received some sort of return as opposed to seeing their franchise-piece, walk for essentially nothing.

Hindsight is indeed 20/20, but it should be crystal clear now that Bryan Colangelo screwed up royally in not moving Bosh prior to last year's trade deadline.

Did he try and not find any suitable offers?

I doubt it.

With the way the media is now days, I'm highly skeptical much of an attempt was made; we would have heard about it.

Was Colangelo duped into thinking Bosh was sticking around?

Possibly.

But at the same time, it didn't seem that Colangelo had any sort of back-up plan in place, one that could have been acted upon the moment it became obvious post-All-Star break that Bosh had his sights set on playing elsewhere the following season. Last year's All-Star break came much earlier too (the actual game was played on Valentine's Day) so that gave BC nearly two weeks to get such a plan in place and execute on it.

Instead, Bryan opted to play what I've referred to in the past as an extremely high-stakes game of poker with Bosh. He bluffed, holding nothing more than a pair of 6's, and lost. Remember, this is the GM who repeatedly assured fans and the media that he wasn't losing Bosh for "nothing," that he would definitely get some sort of asset in return.

I said this all along. Waited, waited, waited for him to trade Bosh, and he kept saying "we plan to build around bosh, blah bla blah". BC is garbage. Worse then Babcock.

powerfulpanda 02-22-2011 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b55bgc (Post 511782)
I still find it hilarious that people dont give Bargnani credit. he is one of the top centres in the league for scoring. He does lack in the defensive side. But how many centres out there lack in the offensive side.

He was a great first round draft pick. Its too bad that bosh hindered his development for so long.

what qualifies as a great draft pick? it should be how they turned out and comparisons to how players drafted before and after turned out as well.
since the topic of this thread is just asking what has hurt this team more, using "hindsight" is valid here whereas it may not be reasonable to bring that up in other arguements
so really, bargnani was not a great 1st overall pick because i'm sure everyone(including raptor fans) would go back and pick differently. as it turns out, bargnani is currently the 5th best player to come from that draft and the drop off from 1,2 to 5 is pretty big i would say.

and "bosh hindered his develpment for so long" ???
that just deserves a HUH?

thought 02-22-2011 12:44 PM

i'm not so worried about our lack of success drafting in the second round (or lack of drafting in the second round period) because how many teams can say they've actually turned second round picks and undrafted signings into effective rotation players? What happened in San Antonio with Ginobili and Parker can be attributed to incredible scouting and a fantastic system, but it's also nothing short of a miracle. Two non-first rounders to become all-stars and core pieces on a near-dynasty? It just doesn't happen.

Two teams that built through the draft - OKC and Atlanta. Neither team has a core player from the second round. Miami, LA, Chicago (though they signed Boozer), Orlando, Dallas (save for Barea), don't rely on second round players. Lightning struck twice in San Antonio. I personally don't care for second round picks that much, use them to sweeten the pot in a deal and hope someone else bites on a 1/1000 chance for a diamond in the rough.

Acie 02-22-2011 12:47 PM

Parker was selected in the 1st round, but I agree with you. The second round is a crapshoot. Bonner was a nice player, PJ Tucker was just too small to succeed at the pro level and Amir and Sonny have been pleasant surprises (even though they were selected by other teams).

To me the biggest problem is that we've tried to build around two guys who were clearly really good players, but were and are better suited as complementary pieces.

BballWatcher 02-22-2011 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by idream (Post 511756)
i blame drafting
you got arujo , joey grahm . both top 10 picks that didnt become anything special .
just imagine if we drafted alrdige instead of bargani . we would of had a good center piece to build around


BRING BACK GRUNWARD :)
he did a decent job drafting !

Graham was the 16th pick, but he was picked one BEFORE Danny Granger, a much better player and one who many/most of us wanted all along.

Ajaujo was a disaster.

Aldridge is a good player but arguably he hasn't played center or even played like a center until THIS season. Up until now he's been Bosh-lite.

GrannyFro 02-22-2011 01:01 PM

where's the refs/corrupt league on that list?

i also agree with the late picks, as jack armstrong always says great teams make use of those late picks whether late first or second round and find players that contribute. Toronto for the most part pisses these picks away like they dont need them. Players slip every draft and the raps are usually not the ones to take advantage of this, hopefully alabi will break this bad trend down the road

thought 02-22-2011 01:07 PM

alabi's not breaking any trends

b55bgc 02-22-2011 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerfulpanda (Post 511799)
what qualifies as a great draft pick? it should be how they turned out and comparisons to how players drafted before and after turned out as well.
since the topic of this thread is just asking what has hurt this team more, using "hindsight" is valid here whereas it may not be reasonable to bring that up in other arguements
so really, bargnani was not a great 1st overall pick because i'm sure everyone(including raptor fans) would go back and pick differently. as it turns out, bargnani is currently the 5th best player to come from that draft and the drop off from 1,2 to 5 is pretty big i would say.

and "bosh hindered his develpment for so long" ???
that just deserves a HUH?

You dont think bosh demanded the ball. And that many of the plays were run through him. This surely hindered his development. As well as the fact that they both play the same position. They are both power forwards. So yeah, i think that could have hindered is development a little bit.


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