What makes a player elite?
Old 12-03-2009, 08:23 PM   #1 (permalink)
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This is where I explain why I think Bosh is just a very good player, but nothing more.

Below I have a list of 8 grading criteria. By my definition, a player is elite if it meets at least 3 As. The super-elite players should get at least 5 As. Bosh only gets one A from me, and might get a 2nd from others. But even his most rabid fans would have a hard time coming up with a 3rd. In order to justify an A, a player should compare well with the examples I've listed as every step. In order for Bosh to get an A for leadership, he should be as good of a leader as Nash or Billups are, not just any other leader ...

1. he has the ability to make players around him better (high assist ratio for his position) - nash, paul, deron
2. he has the ability to create good shots out of tough positions, at any time during the game (kobe, wade, lebron, pierce, Carter etc)
3. is an elite individual defender (howard, duncan, garnett)
4. is an elite team defender (camby, josh smith, garnett, duncan, howard etc)
5. is an elite rebounder for his position (bosh, biedrins, howard, duncan, garnett, david lee, lebron, kidd etc)
6. is a super efficient scorer (nash, duncan, nowitzki, boozer etc)
7. is an elite leader - has the ability to keep a team focused through good and bad times, creates a team spirit etc (nash, billups, garnett etc)
8. can maintain a high intensity throughout the season (kobe, wade, nash, duncan, garnett etc)

I don't think it matters how many points you score, or how many rebounds you have. Garnett is an elite rebounder if if he won't get 12 a game anymore - you know he will get the rebounds that matter. Bosh wasn't an elite rebounder until this season, despite a modest increase of just 2/game, I think he made a decisive step.

As much as one would like, it's hard to fit Bosh in any category other than rebounding. He's not an elite defender of any type, he can't create shots in critical moments, is not a good leader and has one of the lowest assist ratios at his position. If he'd play all seaso like he did in the first 15 games, he could get a 2nd A for efficient scoring, but it remains to be seen if that's the case.

I would give lebron 7 As (minus leadership), and duncan (in his prime) would get 8 As. Kobe gets 5 (minus leadership, passing and rebounding) and Garnett in his prime would get 6 (minus efficient scoring and ability to create shots).

Howard today would get 4 (2 for defense, 1 for efficiency and 1 for rebounding), which would put him just shy of super-elite. Dirk would get 3 (passing, creating shots and scoring efficiently), and most will agree he is not super-elite. An as I said, Bosh can at most get 2, but most likely would end the season being worth just 1A.

In all fairness, the majority of the league doesn't deserve any As here, and there's probably more fine tuning (kobe and nash can both create at an elite level, but kobe does it significantly better than nash). But this describes well my internal classification approach. A player who scores well in this system can help his team in more ways than one and clearly makes a difference, while players who don't score well are still very serviceable, but teams where they are the best player will rarely have significant success.
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Old 12-03-2009, 08:39 PM   #2 (permalink)
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His teammates make a player elite.
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Old 12-03-2009, 08:41 PM   #3 (permalink)
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An elite players wins at whatever cost/
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Old 12-03-2009, 08:43 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bmats7 View Post
His teammates make a player elite.
Thank-you

/end thread.

The idea that Bosh doesn't make his teammates better or that he isn't an efficient scorer is laughable.

And once again, all this does is illustrate the importance of having a strong team behind you so that you can perform at your best. If you don't have THAT you're sunk.

I bet that Kobe REALLY "inspired his teammates" in L.A. when he was threatening to leave the team a few years ago. lol.

Last edited by TORaptor4Ever; 12-03-2009 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 12-03-2009, 08:49 PM   #5 (permalink)
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What was Gasol prior to Kobe? How much better did Kobe look next to Shaq?

LeBron, the best player in the world, makes a ton of players look good.

The fact of the matter is, you have two tiers, you have elites and you're really, really, good players.

Right now, in elite, you really only have LeBron and Kobe and D12 is reaching that level.

Everyone else is slightly below.
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Old 12-03-2009, 08:54 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Nowitzkis more elite then Howard. Howards offensive game is overrated but his defense is solid.
http://www.faniq.com/blog/Dwight-How...NBA-Blog-23870

Last edited by fk24; 12-03-2009 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:07 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:31 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by fk24 View Post
Nowitzkis more elite then Howard. Howards offensive game is overrated but his defense is solid.
Dwight Howard Is The Most Overrated Player In The NBA | NBA | Orlando Magic | Boston Celtics
I would put Dirk in that elite class as well. He's done far more with far less than the likes of D12.

I would give anything to see D12 on team without 3 other all-star calibre players. I'm tempted to believe that he'd look much more average than most people think.
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:39 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I'd give Bosh an A in

Rebounding
High-efficiency scoring
Maintains intensity throughout season

Though really a bunch of your criteria is pretty silly anyways. Ability to create good shots out of tough situations should not be rated on an equal basis with elite help defense and making your teammates better. And "maintaining intensity" is subjective, most players can consistently put up their stats, and Bosh can.

Bosh is an elite player with flaws that keep him out of the top 10 in the league. He doesn't have any defensive impact on the game and he doesn't make his teammates better. Essentially he's a great individual scorer and rebounder and is the best in the league at getting opposing bigs in foul trouble. He's around 13th best player in the league overall and his game is probably suited to being a 2nd option... not because he's not good enough to be a 1st guy, but because you can't really run an offense through him. He's more of a finishing type, even if he doesn't "finish" in the same sense of the word as Amare, their impact on the game is the same. Even though Bosh is as good as Joe Johnson and Brandon Roy, those players are more suited to be the #1 options because of their playmaking which makes their teammates better

Honestly I'd prefer guys like Melo and Deron Williams but what can you do, even having the 13th best player in the league is lucky. The Clippers have been in the lottery for 30 years and never drafted a perenniel all-star, not one. So all this talk of tanking so we can get a better player than Bosh is silly - The chances of us getting someone better than Bosh in the draft aren't any better than getting one through trades or free agency. That's probably why it was a good idea to make a move for Michael Beasley last summer if he was on the table, or to do it now if he is. It'll be very very hard to find a potential franchise prospect at Beasley's level in the draft, even if he's more Jamison than Bosh. At least then we wouldn't be going into "the Andrea Bargnani era!!!"

Last edited by The MVP of West Hollywood; 12-03-2009 at 09:47 PM.
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:50 PM   #10 (permalink)
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an elite player is able to win ugly games, the pretenders like to lose pretty, but it seems now you are seeing more of lose ugly Lol.
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:51 PM   #11 (permalink)
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The reason why Bosh is ranked so low is because his team doesnt get anywhere. You can only go so far in the standings with a pylon as a point guard a 7 foot jumpshooting centre whos allergic to rebounding and doesnt box out, a rookie 2 guard and small forward who cant dribble for his life and is as slow as Rasho. Bosh has stepped up in all but 2 games this season excluding denver and atlanta.
How many times does howard screw up for his team?
Exactly. Hes not a robot whos gonna play every game like this but you can expect a 24-10 night from Bosh almost every night. I was expecting this from Bargnani this season and he hasn't even come close.

Sure his defense is not excellent but what about andrea, jose and Turk?
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:52 PM   #12 (permalink)
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An Elite player must have the first name of either Lebron or Kobe.
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:56 PM   #13 (permalink)
wondering why he gets so much hate???? Freedom of speech right???

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There's nothing wrong with Bosh everybody else sucks...
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:57 PM   #14 (permalink)
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If Bosh was able to reject Pierce on that dunk instead of getting a Double Damage he would be closer to elite
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Old 12-03-2009, 09:58 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The MVP of West Hollywood View Post
I'd give Bosh an A in

Rebounding
High-efficiency scoring
Maintains intensity throughout season

Though really a bunch of your criteria is pretty silly anyways. Ability to create good shots out of tough situations should not be rated on an equal basis with elite help defense and making your teammates better. And "maintaining intensity" is subjective, most players can consistently put up their stats, and Bosh can.

Bosh is an elite player with flaws that keep him out of the top 10 in the league. He doesn't have any defensive impact on the game and he doesn't make his teammates better. Essentially he's a great individual scorer and rebounder and is the best in the league at getting opposing bigs in foul trouble. He's around 13th best player in the league overall and his game is probably suited to being a 2nd option... not because he's not good enough to be a 1st guy, but because you can't really run an offense through him. He's more of a finishing type, even if he doesn't "finish" in the same sense of the word as Amare, their impact on the game is the same. Even though Bosh is as good as Joe Johnson and Brandon Roy, those players are more suited to be the #1 options because of their playmaking which makes their teammates better

Honestly I'd prefer guys like Melo and Deron Williams but what can you do, even having the 13th best player in the league is lucky. The Clippers have been in the lottery for 30 years and never drafted a perenniel all-star, not one. So all this talk of tanking so we can get a better player than Bosh is silly - The chances of us getting someone better than Bosh in the draft aren't any better than getting one through trades or free agency. That's probably why it was a good idea to make a move for Michael Beasley last summer if he was on the table, or to do it now if he is. It'll be very very hard to find a potential franchise prospect at Beasley's level in the draft, even if he's more Jamison than Bosh. At least then we wouldn't be going into "the Andrea Bargnani era!!!"
This is pretty damn good. Kudos to you 'wood. Not sure that I agree with the last part lol... but the rest? Pretty much bang on.
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Old 12-03-2009, 10:03 PM   #16 (permalink)
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in the interview Bosh said that jump shots are nice and sometimes you have to get down and dirty.

this means that the jump shot is his preference and first option.
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Old 12-03-2009, 10:05 PM   #17 (permalink)
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in the interview Bosh said that jump shots are nice and sometimes you have to get down and dirty.

this means that the jump shot is his preference and first option.
WTF?

Do you think that he'd be leading the league in FTAs if that were really the case?
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Old 12-03-2009, 10:09 PM   #18 (permalink)
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WTF?

Do you think that he'd be leading the league in FTAs if that were really the case?


If the team didn't have hedo and other shooters then maybe right up there. Also still would be hard because so many better players in the States than him.
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Old 12-03-2009, 10:16 PM   #19 (permalink)
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well, in an interview Lebron James said he once thought about playing for every team.

This proves he wants to play for the New jersey Nets next year.
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Old 12-03-2009, 10:22 PM   #20 (permalink)
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well, in an interview Lebron James said he once thought about playing for every team.

This proves he wants to play for the New jersey Nets next year.

It doesn't prove anything because it takes a few seconds for someone to change their mind and money came into the equation after so that changed everything.
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