What do we do with Lowry and Bargs now !! - Page 3

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View Poll Results: What do you do when Lowry and Bargs return ???
Put them in the starting line again ?? 9 13.04%
Bring them in off the bench ??? 13 18.84%
Trade Lowry ?? 3 4.35%
Trade Bargs ???? 44 63.77%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-16-2012, 06:53 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
oh sure it's not all his fault. i never said it was. but it's been years of nowhere and time to change direction. that much should be obvious by now. he asked to be traded, he's pushing his later years, we're rebuilding, he's never been a solid defender, he's not going to get any better, and this is the best ball he's ever played and we're still 13 games under .500.

have you ever stopped to consider my entire point instead of just picking your interpretation and trying to stick me with it?

and @ carp - lowry was not anointed. he was a starter, brought in as a starter. that happens all the time.
I agree with the point insofar as we've had shitty teams. I've been pushing for proper "burn to the ground" rebuild for the past 3 seasons. I completely disagree with the notion that it should start by shipping out Calderon. He is one of the few players on the team who can be great as a leader and a teacher to the talented youth, unlike someone like Lowry. IMHO, they need to talk to him, apologize for the all crap they've put him through and offer to re-sign him in the off-season to a reasonable deal to eventually become a veteran leader off the bench and to finish his career as a Raptor.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:00 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I'm pretty sure we can find a taker for a 7foot offensive Forward.

Who or what is the question.

& regardless of how good Jose plays his time is up in Toronto.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:12 PM   #43 (permalink)
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oh sure it's not all his fault. i never said it was. but it's been years of nowhere and time to change direction. that much should be obvious by now. he asked to be traded, he's pushing his later years, we're rebuilding, he's never been a solid defender, he's not going to get any better, and this is the best ball he's ever played and we're still 13 games under .500.

have you ever stopped to consider my entire point instead of just picking your interpretation and trying to stick me with it?

and @ carp - lowry was not anointed. he was a starter, brought in as a starter. that happens all the time.
fair enough re: KL, but the rest doesn't mean Jose needs to go. I like the idea of mending fences with Jose, drafting a future PG prospect, dealing Kyle and building a team identity that doesn't revolve around one player trying desperatlely to go off. I love that Jose has finally realized he needs to score as welll as facilitate and he works wonders with young players. An aggressive Jose is a very good player going forward. He likes it here and there are many teams that would value his services. Why should we give him away when he's shown that he runs our offence better than any other PG we've brought in since he's been here.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:19 PM   #44 (permalink)
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fair enough re: KL, but the rest doesn't mean Jose needs to go. I like the idea of mending fences with Jose, drafting a future PG prospect, dealing Kyle and building a team identity that doesn't revolve around one player trying desperatlely to go off. I love that Jose has finally realized he needs to score as welll as facilitate and he works wonders with young players. An aggressive Jose is a very good player going forward. He likes it here and there are many teams that would value his services. Why should we give him away when he's shown that he runs our offence better than any other PG we've brought in since he's been here.
I would likr that too, but than we need to draft SF and PG. However I'm still a believer that KL can play much much better than he did lately
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:35 PM   #45 (permalink)
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I would likr that too, but than we need to draft SF and PG. However I'm still a believer that KL can play much much better than he did lately
People have been saying that about LK too! lol

Kyle can play better, but he's not a team leader... he's a baller, I give him that. The ball sticks in his hands and I'm not a fan of it. I also think he gets injured too much despite how tough he is. I'm not optimistic and I think it's very difficult to learn the PG position so late in your career. I don't think he's ever going to be a smart PG but he is tenacious. I think he'd be a great trade asset whereas we'd probably be sellling low with Jose... I hate that.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:38 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Kyle Lowry is a horrible PG who's selfish and this teams downfall and Calderon is the teams savior.

A few wins at home against non playoff teams and Raptor Nations opinions get flipped from even as early as a week ago. Raptors fans have the shortest memory of any fans in sports, its quite comical.

This same scenario seems to happen every year with Calderon, and yet people continue to fall for it.

Maybe in a different time with a different team, Calderon could have been a solid, winning starting PG for this team, but as currently constructed, he is what he is, a good trading piece who doesnt fit into the future outlook of this team.

Lowry IS a winning player, and can be this teams future PG if he can ever stay healthy and have at least 20 games straight playing with the team and developing a rhythm not only with his game, but obviously with the team as a whole. Once again, Raptors fans are not looking at the big picture with Kyle, but rather giving up on him because of a 2 game stretch. Please. The guy is a top 15, possibly top 10 PG in the NBA when healthy, and again, once he plays a bunch of games with this team, we'll be a better team for it once all the parts are in place and hes gotten used to playing with his new teammates. I still maintain that we're a better team with Lowry starting moving forward than Jose. If we put a good cast of players around Lowry in the next 1-2 years, we'll be a better team than doing the same thing with Jose.

The issue with the Raptors though is not with the PGs or even Bargnani, its with management. So lets stop with the overreactionary threads after every game on what to do with what player based on one game, and look at the real issues with the team. Ownership, then BC, then Bargnani. 2 of those things can be changed immediately, and hopefully is soon.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:44 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ball Don't Lie View Post
Kyle Lowry is a horrible PG who's selfish and this teams downfall and Calderon is the teams savior.

A few wins at home against non playoff teams and Raptor Nations opinions get flipped from even as early as a week ago. Raptors fans have the shortest memory of any fans in sports, its quite comical.

This same scenario seems to happen every year with Calderon, and yet people continue to fall for it.

Maybe in a different time with a different team, Calderon could have been a solid, winning starting PG for this team, but as currently constructed, he is what he is, a good trading piece who doesnt fit into the future outlook of this team.

Lowry IS a winning player, and can be this teams future PG if he can ever stay healthy and have at least 20 games straight playing with the team and developing a rhythm not only with his game, but obviously with the team as a whole. Once again, Raptors fans are not looking at the big picture with Kyle, but rather giving up on him because of a 2 game stretch. Please. The guy is a top 15, possibly top 10 PG in the NBA when healthy, and again, once he plays a bunch of games with this team, we'll be a better team for it once all the parts are in place and hes gotten used to playing with his new teammates. I still maintain that we're a better team with Lowry starting moving forward than Jose. If we put a good cast of players around Lowry in the next 1-2 years, we'll be a better team than doing the same thing with Jose.

The issue with the Raptors though is not with the PGs or even Bargnani, its with management. So lets stop with the overreactionary threads after every game on what to do with what player based on one game, and look at the real issues with the team. Ownership, then BC, then Bargnani. 2 of those things can be changed immediately, and hopefully is soon.
Nobody is saying Jose is the saviour, just that he's a better PG than Kyle, and for this team, better. The Bargnani issue is separate. Wanting to bring Jose back, for less money and in a mentorship role as well, well how is that overreactionary?

It's not an indictment on Lowry's talent, just his lack of facilitating in an offence with many players that absolutely need to be spoonfed.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:47 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ball Don't Lie View Post
Kyle Lowry is a horrible PG who's selfish and this teams downfall and Calderon is the teams savior.

A few wins at home against non playoff teams and Raptor Nations opinions get flipped from even as early as a week ago. Raptors fans have the shortest memory of any fans in sports, its quite comical.

This same scenario seems to happen every year with Calderon, and yet people continue to fall for it.

Maybe in a different time with a different team, Calderon could have been a solid, winning starting PG for this team, but as currently constructed, he is what he is, a good trading piece who doesnt fit into the future outlook of this team.

Lowry IS a winning player, and can be this teams future PG if he can ever stay healthy and have at least 20 games straight playing with the team and developing a rhythm not only with his game, but obviously with the team as a whole. Once again, Raptors fans are not looking at the big picture with Kyle, but rather giving up on him because of a 2 game stretch. Please. The guy is a top 15, possibly top 10 PG in the NBA when healthy, and again, once he plays a bunch of games with this team, we'll be a better team for it once all the parts are in place and hes gotten used to playing with his new teammates. I still maintain that we're a better team with Lowry starting moving forward than Jose. If we put a good cast of players around Lowry in the next 1-2 years, we'll be a better team than doing the same thing with Jose.

The issue with the Raptors though is not with the PGs or even Bargnani, its with management. So lets stop with the overreactionary threads after every game on what to do with what player based on one game, and look at the real issues with the team. Ownership, then BC, then Bargnani. 2 of those things can be changed immediately, and hopefully is soon.
*standing ovation*
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:50 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Lowry's backers can say about his win shares and his PER and any other idiotic stat that supposedly tells us he's good, but the fact is that his teammates play better without him. They don't seem to have any faith in him and are finally playing as a team with him injured. Let him take his Stephon Marbury act somewhere else.

And that's not even to say I support Calderon. Neither are good solutions for PG particularly long term.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:52 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Jose is aggressive in stretches. It's not his natural disposition. And he still didn't penetrate today. He plays from free throw line to free throw line at his best, usually playing from three point line to three point line. Lowry is all over the court, baseline to baseline.

If the team somehow can't play with the same energy and move off the ball like they did today, then I guess they need to consider Jose as some kind of answer. But that doesn't seem all that likely. Don't forget that it was Jose that was leaving his feet to make passes and forcing really bad passes inside and forcing his own shots, and that was just a week ago. Kudos to him for being able to get to a better comfort level, but I don't think having your 7 footer being awkwardly showcased helped anyone. Getting to the point where everyone is one the same page and fully accountable has made everyone look better, including Casey. It's not just Jose's magic.

Kyle didn't exactly desperately try to go off either, until the team was practically out of games altogether, and then he came close to stealing wins. He didn't play great post-injury, but it's not like he turned into Starbury Jr. In the meantime, it's been obvious for years that the pg position needed to be upgraded. If it's so obvious that Jose runs the offense better than anyone possibly could, then there are some pretty short memories involved.

They do know what they have in Jose. They have some idea of what they have in Kyle. They need to ascertain how long his foot will hamper him, and whether he is going to buy into this team from that point on. I wouldn't rule out trading both of these guys, but I think the starting point would be Jose, with some good pieces coming back, and/or deadwood going out along with him.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:52 PM   #51 (permalink)
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We can't get fleeced for Bargnani. We're selling low right now, but I'd want a package consisting of at least a pick and a prospect which gives us space in the summer or a good player in return to fill a need on the team.
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:55 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Lowry's backers can say about his win shares and his PER and any other idiotic stat that supposedly tells us he's good, but the fact is that his teammates play better without him. They don't seem to have any faith in him and are finally playing as a team with him injured. Let him take his Stephon Marbury act somewhere else.

And that's not even to say I support Calderon. Neither are good solutions for PG particularly long term.
No..... his teammates just play better with a PG that they're used to... because he's been here for YEARS and knows where and when they like the ball.

Jesus... this hate for Lowry is bordering on ridiculous now. Give the guy at least half a damn season for him to learn his new team for God's sakes!
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Old 12-16-2012, 07:57 PM   #53 (permalink)
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I can see them starting Calderon for the first few games until Lowry gets back in game shape. After that Lowry should start. BC should sell high for once. Trade Calderon for a first round pick in a three team trade.

Lal get josh smith, jose calderon, and Linas kleiza
Atl get pau Gasol, Aaron gray, and Chris Duhon.
Tor get devin Harris, Johan petro (both expiring), 1st and 2nd round pick
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Old 12-16-2012, 08:03 PM   #54 (permalink)
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I know we've been ripping on Bargnani defensively, but at the same time we've been light on Valanciunas because he's a rookie. The reason why we won back to back games is because he was on the bench. He's a liability defensively right now.

Give Lowry some more games before everyone starts to pass judgement. Calderon has some chemistry with the second unit guys. It's like the rockets didn't even prepare defensively for Ed and Amir, Calderon was giving them easy looks inside.
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Old 12-16-2012, 08:12 PM   #55 (permalink)
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No..... his teammates just play better with a PG that they're used to... because he's been here for YEARS and knows where and when they like the ball.

Jesus... this hate for Lowry is bordering on ridiculous now. Give the guy at least half a damn season for him to learn his new team for God's sakes!
Spot on!
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Old 12-16-2012, 08:14 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ball Don't Lie View Post
Kyle Lowry is a horrible PG who's selfish and this teams downfall and Calderon is the teams savior.

A few wins at home against non playoff teams and Raptor Nations opinions get flipped from even as early as a week ago. Raptors fans have the shortest memory of any fans in sports, its quite comical.

This same scenario seems to happen every year with Calderon, and yet people continue to fall for it.

Maybe in a different time with a different team, Calderon could have been a solid, winning starting PG for this team, but as currently constructed, he is what he is, a good trading piece who doesnt fit into the future outlook of this team.

Lowry IS a winning player, and can be this teams future PG if he can ever stay healthy and have at least 20 games straight playing with the team and developing a rhythm not only with his game, but obviously with the team as a whole. Once again, Raptors fans are not looking at the big picture with Kyle, but rather giving up on him because of a 2 game stretch. Please. The guy is a top 15, possibly top 10 PG in the NBA when healthy, and again, once he plays a bunch of games with this team, we'll be a better team for it once all the parts are in place and hes gotten used to playing with his new teammates. I still maintain that we're a better team with Lowry starting moving forward than Jose. If we put a good cast of players around Lowry in the next 1-2 years, we'll be a better team than doing the same thing with Jose.

The issue with the Raptors though is not with the PGs or even Bargnani, its with management. So lets stop with the overreactionary threads after every game on what to do with what player based on one game, and look at the real issues with the team. Ownership, then BC, then Bargnani. 2 of those things can be changed immediately, and hopefully is soon.
Very well said good sir.
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Old 12-16-2012, 08:16 PM   #57 (permalink)
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just trade Bargnanni and everything will be ok.. atleast Lowry plays with Heart.. I thinK he presses a bit since the team is off to such a terrible start, but he has the tools, he can pass, score, rebound and defend, but maybe this injury is a good thing, because he gets to see a 2 game winning streak without himself being on the court and how it was done, team work.. less ball hogging, and more passing

we can work with Lowry, just has to adjust his game a little bit, Bargs on the other hand, we can't really do anything, he is what he is.. TRADE HIM
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Old 12-16-2012, 08:16 PM   #58 (permalink)
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You're all missing what's really going on here. This team was a complete mess. Then Thriller said he was not thrilled about being in attendance to witness such an embarrassment, and they felt his cold BC hating eyes on them throughout the last two games. BINGO! A two game winning streak! It's time for them to honor his wishes. They already changed ownership, so I'm not sure what he's looking for there. But they can lose the Colangelo, then trade the big lug, and then onwards and upwards, with Thriller hired to sit courtside and ensure the trajectory does not falter (assuming he'll spread the love around with his extra ticket for guest accompaniment, otherwise fuck it, just keep Jose then).
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Old 12-16-2012, 09:26 PM   #59 (permalink)
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People forget the absolute tear that Lowry was on last year before the all-star break. Guy was a MONSTER. On both ends. His best compared to Calderon's best, there's no competition. And that's not bashing Calderon at all, Lowry just plays with more aggressiveness and intensity!
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Old 12-16-2012, 09:29 PM   #60 (permalink)
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People forget the absolute tear that Lowry was on last year before the all-star break. Guy was a MONSTER. On both ends. His best compared to Calderon's best, there's no competition. And that's not bashing Calderon at all, Lowry just plays with more aggressiveness and intensity!
And he continued that to start the season. A healthy Lowry still shits all over Calderon imo. But this type of shit was bound to happen. For once can we please sell high and trade Calderon, a player that this summer and up to 3 days go nobody thought we could get much for and who isn't part of the future.

BC you've been trying to trade this guy for two years and haven't been able to, hopefully now you can get something for him.

Last edited by jeffb; 12-16-2012 at 09:34 PM.
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