Are we the next superteam? - Page 2
Old 05-16-2013, 07:44 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Yep. Thank you.
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:53 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ammo View Post
As far as I'm concerned, Pandora's box has been opened.

Superteams that fail will just re-load. Where will those stars tend come from? From players that have bashed their heads against the wall in their futile pursuit of championships when they are only playing on an O.K. team. Added to that are veterans taking discounts to stack superteams. I was so sure they would address player retention, but nope.

This is why I don't necessarily want to look at champion teams over the last decade or two or three. Contrived superteams are something newer. Seems to me that the landscape has changed. Can you expect to keep your stars now?
Stars schmars. There needs to be greater player movement so teams aren't held hostage by stars, and worse yet - borderline stars. Teams would be able to have a much greater ability to find players, yes players, on the market, without overpaying because an influx of player movement would create a buyer's market, and they could pinpoint players that fit their schemes and philosophies and current rosters and move forward competently from year to year. Trying to hem "star" players in so they could be retained has only created the supposedly rigged system that is being complained about.
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Old 05-16-2013, 08:10 AM   #23 (permalink)
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So which aspect of their successful "culture" should we emulate? Drafting duds, trading for undesirable players or trading all star players for expiring contracts?
The successful part.
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Old 05-16-2013, 09:06 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Should we consider Landry Fields as part of out big 3?
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Old 05-16-2013, 09:40 AM   #25 (permalink)
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To be a super team,you need at least 2 future hall of famer's who aren't in the twilight of their careers and 3 surefire all stars(including those hall of famers). Raptors have none of the required

IF(and I stress IF),DeRozan,Valanciunas,Gay and Lowry can maximize their potential all at the same time,the Raptors can be a deep in the playoffs,championship contending team.
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:50 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Its not impossible with some luck (but than again we are Raptors)
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:56 AM   #27 (permalink)
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We already have the talent, why is everybody doubting? Talent isn't the issue.
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:11 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Talent is the issue. We don't have a superstar how can we possibly be a super team.
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:11 PM   #29 (permalink)
is.....

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Guys, its time to drop this Wiggins fantasy that your living in at least until he nears the end of his rookie deal. We aren't getting him, he's not coming here, and there is no way, not even in the slightest chance that we even get within 10,000,000 yards from him at least until he plays out his rookie deal. I realize its tough being a Raptors fan but you guys gotta look out for things that have even a remote possibly of happening.

Take for instance Jackson coming here. I bet the odds are insanely better that Jackson comes here before Wiggins is ever even remotely considered to be headed to Toronto in any respect (be it coming home for a holiday, summer vacation, or a family emergency)
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:12 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Yes it is.
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:21 PM   #31 (permalink)
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We are the next Atlanta Hawks. Jonas is Horford, and Rudy Gay is Joe Johnson and a good supporting cast. With the Super 3 of Miami, there are no other contenders in the East.
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:44 PM   #32 (permalink)
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We already have the talent, why is everybody doubting? Talent isn't the issue.
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:51 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by m5racer View Post
Guys, its time to drop this Wiggins fantasy that your living in at least until he nears the end of his rookie deal. We aren't getting him, he's not coming here, and there is no way, not even in the slightest chance that we even get within 10,000,000 yards from him at least until he plays out his rookie deal. I realize its tough being a Raptors fan but you guys gotta look out for things that have even a remote possibly of happening.

Take for instance Jackson coming here. I bet the odds are insanely better that Jackson comes here before Wiggins is ever even remotely considered to be headed to Toronto in any respect (be it coming home for a holiday, summer vacation, or a family emergency)
There is always a chance for all we know they will trade DD and Bargs for 2014 picks. Plus we will have our pick, we could get lucky
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Old 05-16-2013, 01:09 PM   #34 (permalink)
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my thoughts exactly
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Old 05-16-2013, 02:34 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Yeah, I wasn't serious. We're a long, long ways away from having enough talent. We need a top tier stud to pair with JV and Rudy.
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Old 05-16-2013, 02:41 PM   #36 (permalink)
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We're not that far off from a 50-win team from year to year. To get beyond that requires a bit of luck and good timing, but without that even luck isn't going to help a lot. Getting something established here that is separate from the 18 years of being a feeder team and a bottom-feeding team would be an essential first step. And that is not impossible to imagine within a couple of years.
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Old 05-16-2013, 05:31 PM   #37 (permalink)
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We are the next Atlanta Hawks. Jonas is Horford, and Rudy Gay is Joe Johnson and a good supporting cast. With the Super 3 of Miami, there are no other contenders in the East.
Sadly, there are no other contenders in the league.
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Old 05-16-2013, 09:02 PM   #38 (permalink)
Nasty, right? I cocked that joint back and banged on him!

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Allow me an exercise.
Lets' see if we can get this equation down. Others may have a different idea:

A = a new type of champion = The Miami Heat stacked with discount vets

B = superteams now likely to continue to form and re-load in L.A. , N.Y., Chicago, Dallas, etc. to contend with A.

C = Toronto Raptors Championship

Somehow, C must become equal to or greater than A and all of B while still being based in Toronto.

That's plenty to overcome.

So, either "TL" is aiming to and is going to find a way to make C at least = to A and greater than B, or he should take a cream pie to the face every day when he ask the question, "What do we need to do to win a championship?"

And if it is through years of stinkitude and high draft picks, he may not even be here when they do have enough first rounders to dominate.
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Old 05-16-2013, 09:08 PM   #39 (permalink)
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How long are rookie deals usually?
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Old 05-17-2013, 02:53 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Playing defense and team basketball and, when appropriate, holding players accountable. Simply question.
except the discussion was about emulating the way Memphis built the team. The fact that they are a great defensive team is not a result of a planned approach, you don't trade for Zach Randolph, draft oj mayo or ship kyle lowry when defense is top of mind. They just got lucky with Gasol turning so great and having an impact on the rest of the team.

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We should also use our MLE (or a trade) to tweak the roster by adding smart role players, who have immense value, like Tony Allen. Although that is easier said than done because you have to convince those guys to come and plenty of teams want the cheap, high impact guys. But there is no reason the Raps couldn't play hard as fuck on defense if they bought in and put together the right scheme.
I would love to snatch allen, even though he's getting old, he probably has a couple more elite defensive years in him. But again, if the solution to our problem is to emulate the Memphis model by using the MLE on a defensive player, I think you are wrong ...

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We want to emulate the post-2009 precess when the Grizz looked at what they had and moved forward based on the assessments at that given point in time. The only stupid thing they did at that point was draft Xavier Henry in the summer 2010, and that was cancelled out within weeks by adding Tony Allen.
the team as it is now was built almost entirely pre-2009. The only major piece added after that was tony allen. The reason they are good is first and foremost the emergence of Gasol and Conley and Randolph turning from a no-defense nutcase into an all-star player who is keeping out of the headlines.

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BTW, they stole Randolph for peanuts. I agree that Randolph seemed like a clown back then, but they weren't giving anythig up, really. In terms of a cost/benefit analysis, it was very low risk. Despite Randolph's seemingly low b-ball IQ (a perception fueled in part by his play under Zeke in a shit situation), Memphis gave up literally nothing. I would say it would be comparable to us trading Bargnani for Boozer, since Boozer also gets knocked for lack of D, but it's still way better than what we'd get from Bargnani when you look at the overall picture. That's the kind of move the Grizz would have made when they smartened up and started to build a harder-nosed culture of accountability, defense and team ball.
actually, he had 2 years at 16+/yr on his contract, so that's hardly peanuts. That was perceived as a bad contract at the time and people didn't think NY would be able to shed it. Randolph not only has defensive sieve, but he also had attitude and all sorts of other issues - no serious NBA team would have touched him at the time. It was a massive gamble.



Anyway, the whole reason I opened the discussion was to re-emphasize the fact that the reason Memphis/SA/Indiana are successful is they got some really good players through the draft (Gasol wasn't really drafted, but was brought it as a prospect in Pau's trade). It's not "culture", it's having great players that make you a good team. And good players don't go anywhere because of "culture", they just go where there already are good players or where they can make the most money (and I don't really want this type of player on my team). And, while possible to get some hidden gems in mid-lottery or later, the best chance to get quality is in the top 5 and that's where you need to be for 2-3 years in order to build a team. It's not foolproof obviously, but it's the SUREST method and the only one that can be considered proven.
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