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-   -   A vote for Bargnani....kinda. (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/vote-bargnani-kinda-20192.html)

Ammo 05-10-2011 11:34 PM

A vote for Bargnani....kinda.
 
Hells, yeah. It's another Bargnani thread. :deadhorse:

At the risk of being in the minority, I don't want Bargnani gone.....yet. I am not one of his fanboys. And I'm as disappointed as anyone. Wonder to hope to puzzlement to acceptance. I give up.

I want him to fade into the background of this team much more and play a role. He is not to play any type of leadership role, not to be out front as the face of the franchise.

I want to see a core of 5 formed that has Bargnani just on the outside as the sniper who exploits openings. He gets his floor time, but is simply a weapon.

For those who want him gone, remember that most great teams have a depth of 6 or 7 guys with differing skill sets. This is at least 1 guy who is not clamouring to leave town and is not paid a scandalous amount.

If anyone can see a top 6 or 7 guys becoming Raptors in the next couple of years that are all an improvement over Bargnani, let me know.

http://raptorsrepublic.com/wp-conten...gnani-face.jpg

VanCity 05-10-2011 11:51 PM

i'll be the first to admit that i wanted bargs to succeed...especially after bosh left....i was just pissed off that my favourite player was leaving the team i love....

but i really believe that both the team and the player need a change...that being said, we should all know what he is by now....the expectations have been way over the top....he is a good role player, and he proved that by the the way played in the last year beside bosh....i still think he can be effective, given how well the team is built....and this is no excuse, our team has been flawed for years...

he is a very good 2nd option, and i really dont have a problem going forward given BC understands that....

forme123 05-11-2011 12:14 AM

agreed....defensive deficiences aside, not many people are capable of scoring 20+ points a game in the nba. the haters will downplay that stat, but he has the ability to help the team as they build for the future, especially as a role player who capitalizes with the open shot or when the defense has other players to focus on as well....its just people simply expected way too much out of him and because they didn't get exactly what they expected, they want him gone as a result rather than see the glass half full

Ammo 05-11-2011 12:14 AM

I'm having a lot of trouble seeing the value coming back if he is moved. I'm trying to look at the rebuild in the sense that he is kind of ignored for now. In other words, he's a fixture, but not a feature.

His draft position has blurred things. If it helps, think of him as being the 12th selection in a really good draft class. That's when you say, O.K., he's good to have, now who are the guys who are going to carry this team?

LX 05-11-2011 08:24 AM

Mike James was able to score 20ppg. I guess we should have kept him here and just made him more of a role player.

rapsmannn 05-11-2011 09:00 AM

Bargs is a good second option, a great 3rd option

Demar derozan is a great second option

once we get the first option this team will start winning games,

believe it or not the losing wasn't bargs fault this year, it was the way the roster was built no center, pg who cant guard, tons of young guys, mixed with core young guys, just not a good fit


if we land a true first option with demar geting better, and bargs slightly improving every year means we still have a chance to be a great team, its overall patience that is needed more than anything

bargs was the second option of a 40 win team that turk check out from the start, bosh checks out last 15 games, and other injuries, if turk showed up last year and bosh didn't get hurt we could've been a 47 to 50 win team

demar derozan is already leaped bargs, he develops even more with bargs also improving nad some how land derrick williams, Irving and Kanter, we could become a very dangerous team especially a couple years from now, especially if we add some experience

don't forget that for sure you can say that amir, davis and james johnson will all better next year

Superjudge 05-11-2011 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX (Post 537731)
Mike James was able to score 20ppg. I guess we should have kept him here and just made him more of a role player.

Mike James minus the mouth was a pretty good player here.

Acie 05-11-2011 10:23 AM

Mike James was also already in his 30's when he was here.

INSIDER 05-11-2011 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX (Post 537731)
Mike James was able to score 20ppg. I guess we should have kept him here and just made him more of a role player.

Please don't compare mike James and Bargs.
Mike James was a journey man with attitude and baggage, and was only about himself. Not to mention he was over 30 and had zero upside.
I'm not against keeping Bargs, I just don't want to get absolutely no value back and trade him for the sake of trading him.

Tommy C 05-11-2011 11:36 AM

Good post. I think we should keep him for another year and see how things are going.
Like I said before, I am not one of his fanboys but I am not a hater too.
People compare him to all kind of slackers that were in our roster in the past which is stupid to begin with.
since his rookie year, the team was in a re-building process. Sam tried to let him come off the bench, then he tried to put him as the SF for thos of you who can remeber, and start with 3 big guys, then off the bench again... first 2 years were not so good for him. 3rd year he showed he has some moves and all. Next to Bosh it was clear that he is not the first option, but if you ask me he has way more weapons than Bosh. This year he put good numbers, and I don't agree that people say here that it is easy to put 20+ PPG when u play for a crappy team.
Just because he is not the Superstar we were hoping for, it doesn't mean we should let him go with zero return!
Let's not forget that he may not be an allstar, but he still wants to stay in Toronto, which u don't see often with players. His salary is reasonable too.
Like I said before, people here want him to score like James, dribble like Wade and be like KG on D... come on haters, be reasonable. :bash:

jeffb 05-11-2011 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy C (Post 537771)
Good post. I think we should keep him for another year and see how things are going.
Like I said before, I am not one of his fanboys but I am not a hater too.
People compare him to all kind of slackers that were in our roster in the past which is stupid to begin with.
since his rookie year, the team was in a re-building process. Sam tried to let him come off the bench, then he tried to put him as the SF for thos of you who can remeber, and start with 3 big guys, then off the bench again... first 2 years were not so good for him. 3rd year he showed he has some moves and all. Next to Bosh it was clear that he is not the first option, but if you ask me he has way more weapons than Bosh. This year he put good numbers, and I don't agree that people say here that it is easy to put 20+ PPG when u play for a crappy team.
Just because he is not the Superstar we were hoping for, it doesn't mean we should let him go with zero return!
Let's not forget that he may not be an allstar, but he still wants to stay in Toronto, which u don't see often with players. His salary is reasonable too.
Like I said before, people here want him to score like James, dribble like Wade and be like KG on D... come on haters, be reasonable. :bash:

The only things I can reasonably want from him that those players give, is effort, hustle and some aspirations to improve. Sadly, I don't see that happening.

powerfulpanda 05-11-2011 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy C (Post 537771)
Good post. I think we should keep him for another year and see how things are going.
Like I said before, I am not one of his fanboys but I am not a hater too.
People compare him to all kind of slackers that were in our roster in the past which is stupid to begin with.
since his rookie year, the team was in a re-building process. Sam tried to let him come off the bench, then he tried to put him as the SF for thos of you who can remeber, and start with 3 big guys, then off the bench again... first 2 years were not so good for him. 3rd year he showed he has some moves and all. Next to Bosh it was clear that he is not the first option, but if you ask me he has way more weapons than Bosh. This year he put good numbers, and I don't agree that people say here that it is easy to put 20+ PPG when u play for a crappy team.
Just because he is not the Superstar we were hoping for, it doesn't mean we should let him go with zero return!
Let's not forget that he may not be an allstar, but he still wants to stay in Toronto, which u don't see often with players. His salary is reasonable too.
Like I said before, people here want him to score like James, dribble like Wade and be like KG on D... come on haters, be reasonable. :bash:

re-building since his rookie year? what about the couple of playoff appearances?

it doesn't matter if he has more weapons than bosh (i would argue that), if he doesn't use them!

IT IS easier to put up points on a crappy team than it is a good team...

expecting him to play with effort when this is your job and you're a PROFESSIONAL, is that unreasonable?

Tommy C 05-11-2011 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerfulpanda (Post 537779)
re-building since his rookie year? what about the couple of playoff appearances?

it doesn't matter if he has more weapons than bosh (i would argue that), if he doesn't use them!

IT IS easier to put up points on a crappy team than it is a good team...

expecting him to play with effort when this is your job and you're a PROFESSIONAL, is that unreasonable?

Just because he is not vocal like other players it does not mean he plays with zero effort. Yes, he needs to get better, no question,
Yeah even if we did make it to the playoff it was still a re-building process year after year, since the playoff runs sucked big time.

JoeyJoJo Shabbadu 05-11-2011 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX (Post 537731)
Mike James was able to score 20 ppg once in a while but couldn't average 20 ppg over a season.

FYP

Bargnani with all his deficiences isn't doing that on 50% shooting, but others would do that on 40%. I expect that his efficincy will only improve.

powerfulpanda 05-11-2011 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy C (Post 537783)
Just because he is not vocal like other players it does not mean he plays with zero effort. Yes, he needs to get better, no question,
Yeah even if we did make it to the playoff it was still a re-building process year after year, since the playoff runs sucked big time.

where did i say the reason i think he gives no effort is because he's not vocal? you can be vocal and still play with no effort.....the two aren't related

so even tho we made the playoffs but we got knocked out in the 1st round both times, it's still considered re-building eh? so....doing the math, 30 teams in the league, 16 make playoffs, 8 advance past 1st round. 30 - 8 = 22
so 22 teams in the NBA are re-building.....
good for you

carp 05-11-2011 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerfulpanda (Post 537786)
where did i say the reason i think he gives no effort is because he's not vocal? you can be vocal and still play with no effort.....the two aren't related

so even tho we made the playoffs but we got knocked out in the 1st round both times, it's still considered re-building eh? so....doing the math, 30 teams in the league, 16 make playoffs, 8 advance past 1st round. 30 - 8 = 22
so 22 teams in the NBA are re-building.....
good for you

the ease of your assumptive transfer is extremely impressive. ;)

BballWatcher 05-11-2011 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX (Post 537731)
Mike James was able to score 20ppg. I guess we should have kept him here and just made him more of a role player.

James had just turned 30 when we got him, and had been a role player before that. It was a perfect storm for him in TO with regard to playing time, touches, and the absolute peak of his playing ability.

Bargs is 25; his stats last season was not a statistical outlier at all; it's the result of natural progress in his game.

-----

I've never ever been in agreement of the idea of trading Bargnani for trades' sake. If we get the #1 pick in this year's draft or can make another trade that improves us as a team, I'm all for it. If it's for a middling player like Jeff Green then I'm absolutely against it. Better to just move Bargs to the bench and use him as instant energy than get a so-so player like Green for him who does less than he does.

jeffb 05-11-2011 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BballWatcher (Post 537814)
James had just turned 30 when we got him, and had been a role player before that. It was a perfect storm for him in TO with regard to playing time, touches, and the absolute peak of his playing ability.

Bargs is 25; his stats last season was not a statistical outlier at all; it's the result of natural progress in his game.

-----

I've never ever been in agreement of the idea of trading Bargnani for trades' sake. If we get the #1 pick in this year's draft or can make another trade that improves us as a team, I'm all for it. If it's for a middling player like Jeff Green then I'm absolutely against it. Better to just move Bargs to the bench and use him as instant energy than get a so-so player like Green for him who does less than he does.


Energy? Bargnani? And bringing him off the bench should raise his stock. :sigh:

Claudius 05-11-2011 02:28 PM

Jeff, please provide the argument against why his stock wouldn't raise by coming off the bench in scoring capacity.

jeffb 05-11-2011 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claudius (Post 537824)
Jeff, please provide the argument against why his stock wouldn't raise by coming off the bench in scoring capacity.

A former number 1 pick that everyone knows has motivational problems, can't play D....deligated to the bench @10Mil. Maybe he'd prove me wrong but I doubt it. Less minutes, less shots. It won't help his stock imo.


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