A vote for Bargnani....kinda. - Page 2
Old 05-11-2011, 02:56 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Jeff, please provide the argument against why his stock wouldn't raise by coming off the bench in scoring capacity.
The only reason Bargnani scoring increased this year is because he chucked up an additional 3.5 shots per game. Next year, Derozan, Ed Davis, Bayless, and the rookie will be putting up more shots. If he comes of the bench, his scoring will decrease based on limited a role and other players putting up more shots. Let face it, the only selling point on Bargnani is his scoring because he brings nothing else (defense and rebounding) to the table. If his scoring drops, his stock will drop. Sell him high with 21 pts scoring average (on 18 shot attempts), because he "does things more complicated than defense and rebounding."
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Old 05-11-2011, 02:59 PM   #22 (permalink)
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The only reason Bargnani scoring increased this year is because he chucked up an additional 3.5 shots per game. Next year, Derozan, Ed Davis, Bayless, and the rookie will be putting up more shots. If he comes of the bench, his scoring will decrease based on limited a role and other players putting up more shots. Let face it, the only selling point on Bargnani is his scoring because he brings nothing else (defense and rebounding) to the table. If his scoring drops, his stock will drop. Sell him high with 21 pts scoring average (on 18 shot attempts), because he "does things more complicated than defense and rebounding."
Exactly
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Old 05-11-2011, 03:15 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I can't argue with that logic. Sounds good to me.
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Old 05-11-2011, 03:26 PM   #24 (permalink)
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The only reason Bargnani scoring increased this year is because he chucked up an additional 3.5 shots per game. Next year, Derozan, Ed Davis, Bayless, and the rookie will be putting up more shots. If he comes of the bench, his scoring will decrease based on limited a role and other players putting up more shots. Let face it, the only selling point on Bargnani is his scoring because he brings nothing else (defense and rebounding) to the table. If his scoring drops, his stock will drop. Sell him high with 21 pts scoring average (on 18 shot attempts), because he "does things more complicated than defense and rebounding."
Very true.
The only decision to be made here is if the Raps can use him in the next couple of years or if he should be traded, and what do we get in return.
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Old 05-11-2011, 05:16 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Please don't compare mike James and Bargs.
Mike James was a journey man with attitude and baggage, and was only about himself. Not to mention he was over 30 and had zero upside.
I'm not against keeping Bargs, I just don't want to get absolutely no value back and trade him for the sake of trading him.
Who was comparing them? I think you just did. I was only bringing up MJ and his 20 ppg to illustrate that it's not really what you want to look at when making decisions about the future of a team.

I don't want to trade him for the sake of trading him either. Getting crap back won't make me happy. I don't see why there would be any question of getting value back.
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Old 05-11-2011, 05:27 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Not going to work. Mentally he's weak. If he were to come off the bench, he would be horribly inconsistent (like 3 years ago) and at most average like 14 points per game, especially with his decrease of shots. Also its hard to just change a players role sp drasticly like that. Fact is, he'll still be our best player (well depending on how much Demar can improve over summer vs. Bargs improvement over the summer) and by making him come of the bench, he'll become either a black hole because he thinks he's better than everyone or he'll just suck again. Besides there are too many other glaring deficiencies on our team that he can be used as an asset to fix. Trading him would be the much better choice.
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Old 05-11-2011, 07:52 PM   #27 (permalink)
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As much as I would like to think teams are clamouring to give up their playmakers and complete players and leaders for Bargnani, I'm not seeing it. We have had some success with lower level moves, but not bigger deals.

Further, there is going to be an outflow of talent when they have their freedom and, as usual, some players choosing American cities while other free agents snub Toronto.

Unique to this organization is keeping talent when it is here and working with it. In this case, he'd be a contributor, not a leader.

And I don't see any part of his personality that says he would become a malcontent if he were not "the man". I only see indifference. He is not the guy being built around anyway and that complete player is not here yet.

Forget his draft position and thinking of him as a hindrance in rebuilding. I think he is an asset to be used when the team has better ballers leading because no one can deny that he can contribute.
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Old 05-11-2011, 08:17 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Can he contribute to improving defensively?

Why do we need playmakers and leaders to get value in return? The right role players and picks would be nice, with the added bonus of allowing for more minutes for Davis and Johnson.
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Old 05-11-2011, 08:41 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Can he contribute to improving defensively?

Why do we need playmakers and leaders to get value in return? The right role players and picks would be nice, with the added bonus of allowing for more minutes for Davis and Johnson.
Because of the recognition of who he is right now...the guy you pick 12th in a much better draft and think you lucked out at his skill. What kind of return do you get for that? Eddy Curry and an 11th pick? And if Davis and Amir do a better job, then they should always get more minutes than him no matter what happens. No more politics based minutes.

And no, I have stopped thinking the defense and rebounding are suddenly going to explode. That's what makes him a role player....constantly 3rd to 7th in the pecking order of a good team. He won't be the first one dimensional role player on a good team. Steve Kerr shot, Dennis Rodman rebounded. But they were not the "it" guys on their teams.

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Old 05-11-2011, 09:17 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Because of the recognition of who he is right now...the guy you pick 12th in a much better draft and think you lucked out at his skill. What kind of return do you get for that? Eddy Curry and an 11th pick? And if Davis and Amir do a better job, then they should always get more minutes than him no matter what happens. No more politics based minutes.

And no, I have stopped thinking the defense and rebounding are suddenly going to explode. That's what makes him a role player....constantly 3rd to 7th in the pecking order of a good team. He won't be the first one dimensional role player on a good team. Steve Kerr shot, Dennis Rodman rebounded. But they were not the "it" guys on their teams.
I could live with that entirely if he wasn't a big with no interest in defending. It's just too costly at his position. If he can come off the bench and commit to some defense and get minutes based on match ups and his level of play on the defensive end, then sure. But how long before they go back to trying to Jimmy the whole team in order to make up for what he refuses to supply? He needs to be the man on the offensive end in order to make up for what he doesn't do elsewhere. I'm just sick of seeing the attempts to re-invent the game, and I don't see an end to that. If another direction can be taken it would be great, but I'd have to ask what took so long to do it.
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Old 05-12-2011, 09:20 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I could live with that entirely if he wasn't a big with no interest in defending. It's just too costly at his position. If he can come off the bench and commit to some defense and get minutes based on match ups and his level of play on the defensive end, then sure. But how long before they go back to trying to Jimmy the whole team in order to make up for what he refuses to supply? He needs to be the man on the offensive end in order to make up for what he doesn't do elsewhere. I'm just sick of seeing the attempts to re-invent the game, and I don't see an end to that. If another direction can be taken it would be great, but I'd have to ask what took so long to do it.
sorry, dont think its lack of interest or care about defense on bargnanis part. its his lack of defensive IQ, and reaction to where he should be on the floor that has resulted in his defensive/rebuilding woes.

and ppl using those questionable quotes he made during the season about reboundingball or w/e, i dont think that's him not giving a shit, thats him cleartly talking out of frustration that he hasnt been able to succeed as expected...so when people on here using that against him (not saying u LX dont worry), i think its complete bullshit excuse to hate on him.
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Old 05-12-2011, 09:46 PM   #32 (permalink)
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sorry, dont think its lack of interest or care about defense on bargnanis part. its his lack of defensive IQ, and reaction to where he should be on the floor that has resulted in his defensive/rebuilding woes.

and ppl using those questionable quotes he made during the season about reboundingball or w/e, i dont think that's him not giving a shit, thats him cleartly talking out of frustration that he hasnt been able to succeed as expected...so when people on here using that against him (not saying u LX dont worry), i think its complete bullshit excuse to hate on him.
thats even worse then, isn't it? if its because of a lack of interest then at least we can say he has the capability, but we aren't seeing it because he is just lazy. but now you put forth the idea that its because of his lack of defensive IQ so great.....it turns out its simply because he just sucks on defense and not about if he's trying or not
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Old 05-12-2011, 09:54 PM   #33 (permalink)
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thats even worse then, isn't it? if its because of a lack of interest then at least we can say he has the capability, but we aren't seeing it because he is just lazy. but now you put forth the idea that its because of his lack of defensive IQ so great.....it turns out its simply because he just sucks on defense and not about if he's trying or not
not saying its good lol, just trying to get rid of that stigma that hes this completely lazy sloth who doesnt give a shit...sure he isnt the hardest worker in the nba, but cmon...and im basing this off of his body language and how he functions on defense...

and no i dont think its necessarily worse,, effort or passion for instance is something within, either you have it or you don't.....atleast regarding his IQ, he can work hard to improve his game and any of his confusions or plays over the summer for us (that is if hes still even here next year)
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Old 05-12-2011, 09:57 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I don't get why any team would want his lame contract when it runs for a few more years unless they can send a bad contract back.

Pretty sure every other team has scouts who know exactly what everyone here knows about Bargnani - that he's a pussy.
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Old 05-12-2011, 10:01 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I don't get why any team would want his lame contract when it runs for a few more years unless they can send a bad contract back.

Pretty sure every other team has scouts who know exactly what everyone here knows about Bargnani - that he's a pussy.
so what, there are a lot of pussys in the nba that continue to be relevant and sought after......guys like Bosh make 18 million a year for instance, he isnt exactly the toughest player in the league to state fairly......ud be silly to think Bargs softness is going to stop gms from acquiring him

and gms would want him becuase hes got a rare skill set that would help an offense run more efficiently.....fact is you can't have a team full of grit, or a team full of only finesse to succeed....the best teams have a healthy combo, thats just how it is

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Old 05-12-2011, 10:31 PM   #36 (permalink)
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so what, there are a lot of pussys in the nba that continue to be relevant and sought after......guys like Bosh make 18 million a year for instance, he isnt exactly the toughest player in the league to state fairly......ud be silly to think Bargs softness is going to stop gms from acquiring him
One....Bargnani is softer then Bosh. Secondly, Bosh isn't making 18Mil....Third, there's probably several GM's (5-6?) that would be intregued to get Bargnani depending on the price.
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Old 05-12-2011, 10:48 PM   #37 (permalink)
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One....Bargnani is softer then Bosh. Secondly, Bosh isn't making 18Mil....Third, there's probably several GM's (5-6?) that would be intregued to get Bargnani depending on the price.
one, didnt disagree barg wasn't softer than bosh....but proving that soft guys such as Bosh are sought after, and sorry he may not be making 18 mill this year, but it averages around there by end of his contract, dont be a smartass......plus he ends up making more than lebron and wade i believe, which is a joke....it goes to show soft players can make max money in the nba.....and btw, 5-6? several? do u have inside info or something?, why you throw out random numbers to prove ur point?

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Old 05-12-2011, 11:00 PM   #38 (permalink)
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one, didnt disagree barg wasn't softer than bosh....but proving that soft guys such as Bosh are sought after, and sorry he may not be making 18 mill this year, but it averages around there by end of his contract, dont be a smartass......plus he ends up making more than lebron and wade i believe, which is a joke....it goes to show soft players can make max money in the nba.....and btw, 5-6? several? do u have inside info or something?, why you throw out random numbers to prove ur point?

Wasn't trying to be a smartass, he isn't making 18Mil and won't be for another 3 seasons. As for the 5-6?? comment, it was a guess on my part obviously......which means i agree with you that GM's have interest in him. Don't get your undies in a bunch.

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Old 05-13-2011, 07:28 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Bargnani is not a bad person, he's just misguided. I honestly think he doesn't believe he's hurting his team when he stands and watches as opposing players get rebounds or lay it in in front of him. It's just so that no one tells him otherwise. Everyone was euphoric when Triano allowed Bargnani to play through mistakes as opposed to Smitch. So Triano has been thanked for it so many times that maybe he doesn't dare to "turn back". Triano needs to realize that if you favour one player no matter how beneficial it can be for that player, it can send a confusing message to the rest of the team. Then your message has no effect.

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Old 05-13-2011, 11:03 AM   #40 (permalink)
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one, didnt disagree barg wasn't softer than bosh....but proving that soft guys such as Bosh are sought after, and sorry he may not be making 18 mill this year, but it averages around there by end of his contract, dont be a smartass......plus he ends up making more than lebron and wade i believe, which is a joke....it goes to show soft players can make max money in the nba.....and btw, 5-6? several? do u have inside info or something?, why you throw out random numbers to prove ur point?
Bosh was pursued as a FA because he rebounded the basketball and he was one of the league's best at getting to the FT line (and converting). He was/is also a very efficient shooter and is capable of excelling when part of a solid defensive unit.

Bargs doesn't bring nearly as much to the table. He's a volume scorer. That's about it.
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