UPDATE: Toronto - Jermaine O'Neal is a Raptor

MangoKidHoops · 06-23-2008, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superjudge

I said exactly what Swag said!!!!!

I know, but I didn't want to give you any credit cause you'd let it get to your head.

jeffb · 06-23-2008, 01:53 PM

So if he misses 30 games again next season.Who's his backup C, Bargnani? Humphries? Can either of those two play 30+ minutes a game for 30 games at that position? I don't think so.

Superjudge · 06-23-2008, 02:02 PM

I'm just really good at condensing.

hehehehe

**fancylad** · 06-23-2008, 02:04 PM

fuck.

It's all for nothing if Oneal doesn't play when we need him to the most.

That being said, good stuff Swag. more than "adequate."

griffthecat · 06-23-2008, 02:07 PM

bargs gets BETTER with this deal. Going up against a good lost post presence every day in practice will do that for him! More importantly, the raps get better. Being able to trade $23 mil beautiful! That in itself could net a high pick and a couple of good players. For TJ and Rasho? They have to do this, but BC has got to push to keep that pick. JO and donte green would be wonderful! Throw in duhon for the mid level and we are right back in the thick of things.

Also, you get the flexibility to swap Bargs for a diaw or a josh smith(my personal dream)

It opens up SO many possibilities!!!

jeffb · 06-23-2008, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffthecat

bargs gets BETTER with this deal. Going up against a good lost post presence every day in practice will do that for him! More importantly, the raps get better. Being able to trade $23 mil beautiful! That in itself could net a high pick and a couple of good players. For TJ and Rasho? They have to do this, but BC has got to push to keep that pick. JO and donte green would be wonderful! Throw in duhon for the mid level and we are right back in the thick of things.

Also, you get the flexibility to swap Bargs for a diaw or a josh smith(my personal dream)

It opens up SO many possibilities!!!

What about swaping picks?

To Toronto: O'neil/#11 pick (could pick Alexander,Randolph or Rush??)

To Pacers: T.J/Rasho/? + #17 pick

Once you're out of the top ten it's a crap shoot!So i don't think swaping picks would be a deal breaker for Pacers.

griffthecat · 06-23-2008, 02:38 PM

sounds good to me! I just think we NEED a pick on top of anything we can get for ford. If we can move up, maybe augustin is an option as a back up pg

**Adequate Swag** · 06-23-2008, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb

So if he misses 30 games again next season.Who's his backup C, Bargnani? Humphries? Can either of those two play 30+ minutes a game for 30 games at that position? I don't think so.

Well the offseason just started. I would assume that if this deal were to go through, BC would make the necessary adjustments from a depth perspective.

But aside from that, I'd have no problem with Bargs getting 30 mpg if his play is half decent. I mean, theres a reason (besides salary) that it's Rasho involved in the trade and not Bargs.

When you're bringing up an argument of "well who's going to back him up if he gets injured?", you're looking for reasons not to pull the trigger. Who was going to back Shaq up in Miami when they made that deal? No one significant. Who would've backed up KG or Ray Allen if they went down this year? No one significant. They both figured it out and won a championship though.

You've got to build a team with the best players you can. If the doctors say Jermaine is good to go, that's good enough for me.

One thing I'd like to make very clear is this: EVERY deal that is offered for TJ will have flaws. Big ones. Because TJ has flaws. Big ones. "Who will his backup be if he goes down?" is not a huge one.

Edit: Theres no way Indy swaps picks. Toronto would be doing backflips if they even got to hang on to 17. The pick is a very, very big part of this deal.

rapsfan087 · 06-23-2008, 02:51 PM

Is he a center or a PF? Anyway, I think about him and CB at the same time on the court and I don't like it.

jeffb · 06-23-2008, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffthecat

sounds good to me! I just think we NEED a pick on top of anything we can get for ford. If we can move up, maybe augustin is an option as a back up pg

I agree, we need a pick!And since we're giving them probably three players (T.J,Rasho,Graham?)for one injury prone overpriced player then we should keep our pick or swap picks.The latter of the two would be preferable!

Like i said we'd come out of the week with O'neil and #11 pick.I'm not a fan of O'neil being our only real Centre due to his health but if we do it we better keep a pick.Giving up three roster players and a draft pick for one player (w/knee problems) doesn't make sense!

jeffb · 06-23-2008, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adequate Swag

Well the offseason just started. I would assume that if this deal were to go through, BC would make the necessary adjustments from a depth perspective.

But aside from that, I'd have no problem with Bargs getting 30 mpg if his play is half decent. I mean, theres a reason (besides salary) that it's Rasho involved in the trade and not Bargs.

When you're bringing up an argument of "well who's going to back him up if he gets injured?", you're looking for reasons not to pull the trigger. Who was going to back Shaq up in Miami when they made that deal? No one significant. Who would've backed up KG or Ray Allen if they went down this year? No one significant. They both figured it out and won a championship though.

You've got to build a team with the best players you can. If the doctors say Jermaine is good to go, that's good enough for me.

One thing I'd like to make very clear is this: EVERY deal that is offered for TJ will have flaws. Big ones. Because TJ has flaws. Big ones. "Who will his backup be if he goes down?" is not a huge one.

Edit: Theres no way Indy swaps picks. Toronto would be doing backflips if they even got to hang on to 17. The pick is a very, very big part of this deal.

Shaq,KG,Allen are nowhere near as injury prone as O'neil.When someone averages 51 games per season for the last 4 seasons it has to be a consideration.That and what else is out there (other options other than O'neil)

Superjudge · 06-23-2008, 03:03 PM

Does he have Knee problems?

I thought he had a knee problem.

And he had surgery and fixed it.

Don't gotta look very far down the Raptors roster Alphabetically to find an allstar big man who has had Knee problems.

Don't hear anyone screaming for him to be shipped outta town.

listen, you do this deal ya got what?

Nothing different from last year, except, you shipped the PG you thought was bad for the team, made peace with the one that remains. Shipped an agind center, and got back a shot at having an allstar front court, with a 1rst overall pick to back them up as well as learn from them both.

Wow.

Sounds good to me.

**Adequate Swag** · 06-23-2008, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb

I agree, we need a pick!And since we're giving them probably three players (T.J,Rasho,Graham?)for one injury prone overpriced player then we should keep our pick or swap picks.The latter of the two would be preferable!

Like i said we'd come out of the week with O'neil and #11 pick.I'm not a fan of O'neil being our only real Centre due to his health but if we do it we better keep a pick.Giving up three roster players and a draft pick for one player (w/knee problems) doesn't make sense!

That deal does not include the 11 pick, regardless of how much you would like it to. It never has, never will.

And I don't see what your big concern about a 3rd roster player is. Joey Graham is so expendable it's unbelievable.

Let me make another thing clear as well: 17 is a key part of any TJ Ford package. If we wait until after the draft and deal Ford without a pick, the value back will decrease significantly. And why is the 17 pick such a big deal?

You're really that enamored with Robin Lopez?

Yeah...because he would give us exactly the same defensive and rebounding skill set, with zero offense or experience.

Let's pass on a deal for a prove All Star until we see how the 17th pick works out right? Wrong. Nearly 50% of players drafted in the second half of the first round are either out of the NBA or at the end of a bench five years down the road.

If Ford and 17 was only going to get Boris Diaw (and NOT the 15th pick), do you really think adding Rasho nesterovic to that deal warrants a much better player AND a lottery pick?

Be realistic. Your fandom is preventing you from properly analyzing any of these deals.

Superjudge · 06-23-2008, 03:08 PM

play nice Swag.

**Adequate Swag** · 06-23-2008, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb

Shaq,KG,Allen are nowhere near as injury prone as O'neil.When someone averages 51 games per season for the last 4 seasons it has to be a consideration.That and what else is out there (other options other than O'neil)

The main other option being brought up is Boris Diaw. O Neal is injury prone. Diaw is craptastic basketball prone.

And the backups for Shaq, KG, and Allen weren't number one overall picks two years ago. So I would say it kind of evens out.

Superjudge · 06-23-2008, 03:11 PM

O'Neal is not injury prone.

He has had two bad injuries.an ankle, and a knee.

That by nomeans means he's done.

Not by a long shot.

JayJayW · 06-23-2008, 03:18 PM

well at least with this when he is out of his contract we will have a hUGE cap space

Raptorfan27 · 06-23-2008, 03:22 PM

he is just 29, and if hes working out in vegas, his knee might be fine. and does adding graham make the salaries work (oneal for tj rasho graham pick)? by the way, any trade where we trade tj, i'm down

Krazy Ivan · 06-23-2008, 03:23 PM

Unless Raps plan to move O'Neal right away to NY or somewhere else for a high pick or some other player I saw no reason for them to get one more PF... none.

**•LX•** · 06-23-2008, 03:35 PM

So if you look at him possibly being back to good health, and not having to carry as much of a load as he did in Indy, then maybe it works. Defensively it could be very good. He is still a pretty great shot blocker and help defender.

Here's where I am alright with this: we get a proven guy who could be dominant if in top form, basically for Charlie V., Bonner, and a not-so-great pick. That sounds pretty good to these ears. The only thing that makes me nervous is the guy's ability to run up and down the floor as well as bang. I would hope that they could not overuse him, and build up his minutes as the season wore on.

06-23-2008, 02:51 PM	#29 (permalink)
rapsfan087 is dead inside. Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 816 Representing:	Is he a center or a PF? Anyway, I think about him and CB at the same time on the court and I don't like it. Last edited by rapsfan087; 06-23-2008 at 02:56 PM.

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06-23-2008, 01:53 PM	#22 (permalink)
jeffb is Pissed, WINDOWS 7 was his idea!!! Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Toronto Posts: 18,651 Representing:	So if he misses 30 games again next season.Who's his backup C, Bargnani? Humphries? Can either of those two play 30+ minutes a game for 30 games at that position? I don't think so.

06-23-2008, 02:02 PM	#23 (permalink)
Superjudge is a Genius Meter. You're a bad guy Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: I live in Toronto. Posts: 7,367 Representing:	I'm just really good at condensing. hehehehe

06-23-2008, 02:04 PM	#24 (permalink)
fancylad is having less Olympic withdrawal seizures Oi! Oi! Oi! Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Toronto city Posts: 7,935 Representing:	fuck. It's all for nothing if Oneal doesn't play when we need him to the most. That being said, good stuff Swag. more than "adequate."

06-23-2008, 02:07 PM	#25 (permalink)
griffthecat is dead inside. Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: toronto Posts: 204 Representing:	bargs gets BETTER with this deal. Going up against a good lost post presence every day in practice will do that for him! More importantly, the raps get better. Being able to trade $23 mil beautiful! That in itself could net a high pick and a couple of good players. For TJ and Rasho? They have to do this, but BC has got to push to keep that pick. JO and donte green would be wonderful! Throw in duhon for the mid level and we are right back in the thick of things. Also, you get the flexibility to swap Bargs for a diaw or a josh smith(my personal dream) It opens up SO many possibilities!!!

06-23-2008, 02:38 PM	#27 (permalink)
griffthecat is dead inside. Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: toronto Posts: 204 Representing:	sounds good to me! I just think we NEED a pick on top of anything we can get for ford. If we can move up, maybe augustin is an option as a back up pg

06-23-2008, 03:03 PM	#32 (permalink)
Superjudge is a Genius Meter. You're a bad guy Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: I live in Toronto. Posts: 7,367 Representing:	Does he have Knee problems? I thought he had a knee problem. And he had surgery and fixed it. Don't gotta look very far down the Raptors roster Alphabetically to find an allstar big man who has had Knee problems. Don't hear anyone screaming for him to be shipped outta town. listen, you do this deal ya got what? Nothing different from last year, except, you shipped the PG you thought was bad for the team, made peace with the one that remains. Shipped an agind center, and got back a shot at having an allstar front court, with a 1rst overall pick to back them up as well as learn from them both. Wow. Sounds good to me.

06-23-2008, 03:08 PM	#34 (permalink)
Superjudge is a Genius Meter. You're a bad guy Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: I live in Toronto. Posts: 7,367 Representing:	play nice Swag.

06-23-2008, 03:11 PM	#36 (permalink)
Superjudge is a Genius Meter. You're a bad guy Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: I live in Toronto. Posts: 7,367 Representing:	O'Neal is not injury prone. He has had two bad injuries.an ankle, and a knee. That by nomeans means he's done. Not by a long shot.

06-23-2008, 03:18 PM	#37 (permalink)
JayJayW is dead inside. Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 396 Representing:	well at least with this when he is out of his contract we will have a hUGE cap space

06-23-2008, 03:22 PM	#38 (permalink)
Raptorfan27 is waiting for bc to make his move Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 261 Representing:	he is just 29, and if hes working out in vegas, his knee might be fine. and does adding graham make the salaries work (oneal for tj rasho graham pick)? by the way, any trade where we trade tj, i'm down

06-23-2008, 03:23 PM	#39 (permalink)
Krazy Ivan is dead inside. Byte Mii, I have Wii Fit! Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,968 Representing:	Unless Raps plan to move O'Neal right away to NY or somewhere else for a high pick or some other player I saw no reason for them to get one more PF... none.

06-23-2008, 03:35 PM	#40 (permalink)
•LX• is doing the laundry in his mind, and pocketing all the change he finds In the Paint Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Toronto Posts: 8,053 Representing:	So if you look at him possibly being back to good health, and not having to carry as much of a load as he did in Indy, then maybe it works. Defensively it could be very good. He is still a pretty great shot blocker and help defender. Here's where I am alright with this: we get a proven guy who could be dominant if in top form, basically for Charlie V., Bonner, and a not-so-great pick. That sounds pretty good to these ears. The only thing that makes me nervous is the guy's ability to run up and down the floor as well as bang. I would hope that they could not overuse him, and build up his minutes as the season wore on.