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LOG 11-19-2013 03:21 PM

Two high usage wings are struggling to play together
 
Surprise! Two high-usage wings are struggling to play together | Raptors Republic: ESPN TrueHoop Network Blog

Carlos Danger 11-19-2013 03:57 PM

No surprise. Basketball teams need a hierarchy in terms of shot distribution. Or at least the ability to recognize on a game to game basis who is hot and whose not.

Rudy and Demar seem to get in shootouts and see who can shoot worse.

KoolAid 11-19-2013 04:17 PM

I agree with the overall point but it's kind of funny that he says 343 mins is a poor sample size then goes on to use 173 mins as a sample size.

niggles 11-19-2013 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carlos Danger (Post 832644)
No surprise. Basketball teams need a hierarchy in terms of shot distribution. Or at least the ability to recognize on a game to game basis who is hot and whose not.

Rudy and Demar seem to get in shootouts and see who can shoot worse.

And so far----- they're tied!

moremilk 11-19-2013 04:50 PM

what I draw from this article is that, by their own admission, small samples are ok as long as they back our preconceived notions :)

they may be right to be sure, but it's insane to draw any conclusions from this. For all we know, they both may be in shooting slump right now.

also, how much of this is style of play imposed by coaching stuff. I realize miami is not the same thing, but still, both lebron and wade are high usage poor shooting (lebron is good now, but 3 years ago he was still average) super athletic freaks and they were able to get it to work.

Everybody in the league knows (by now) the secret to beat miami is to slow the game and force them to play in the half court. And what does Casey do? He does this ON PURPOSE. Hm ...

Nyall 11-20-2013 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moremilk (Post 832653)
what I draw from this article is that, by their own admission, small samples are ok as long as they back our preconceived notions :)

what you should draw is that derozan and gay can not work together..

Quote:

they may be right to be sure, but it's insane to draw any conclusions from this. For all we know, they both may be in shooting slump right now.
Gay's poor shooting has lasted ever since last season and has gotten worse now, as he's shooting far more than he did last year, with no signs of actually slowing down. This is no shooting slump, This is what Gay brings. He won't make any more shots than he's making now, what might change is that he'll stop taking as many shots, hopefully he's not a Raptor long enough for us to find out.

For DeRozan sake, I'm really hoping he doesn't become even more like gay.

Quote:

also, how much of this is style of play imposed by coaching stuff. I realize miami is not the same thing, but still, both lebron and wade are high usage poor shooting (lebron is good now, but 3 years ago he was still average) super athletic freaks and they were able to get it to work.
wtf are you talking about? and are you actually comparing the raptors to miami?

Scoring 30 ppg, on 50 pct. shooting is not average. It is amazing. Lebron is the furthest thing from a poor shooter, and if you don't include his rookie year, he has always been efficient [by league standards]. Not to mention Lebron has hadat least 6 apg in every year he's been in the league. Lebron's worse season in the league, his rookie year, is better by FAR than Gay or Demar's best seasons in the league. Him not being a chucker like Gay is the reason why it worked in Miami. Lebron actually gets team mates involved, to Gay, team mates are the things that give the ball to him and stare while he plays iso, 20 times a game.

And I haven't even spoken about Wade yet.
Quote:

Everybody in the league knows (by now) the secret to beat miami is to slow the game and force them to play in the half court. And what does Casey do? He does this ON PURPOSE. Hm ...
you're trolling right? you have to be, you must be.. please tell me you are.

pzabby 11-20-2013 01:41 AM

The article made a nice point about how dd without gay has actually been great. His ts% up and the teams offr and defr both up. Gay has to go. I dont think this team needs to be blown up but this team right now, if it were as it were before the trade went down (I.e including all signings/trades made by Masai but keeping ed and caldy) would be much much better. And then Masai even has a bit of cap space to work with to sign or trade for the right fitting sf for this team. BC can go rot in hell!

Lowry/caldy (limited mins)/Augustine
Dd/ross/fields
Addition/fields
Amir/ed/hans
Jv/amir/hans

JoeyJoJo Shabbadu 11-20-2013 01:52 AM

Demar needs 20 games to figure out he's Tracey McGrady if you catch my drift.

The post mentioning the Pg not to be named is ridic.

halphbreedballer 11-20-2013 09:02 AM

They both have get on the same page it's clear that Gay is a better rebounder let him do that & score. And then DeMar should concentrate on passing more than rebounding. Easier said than done.

pzabby 11-20-2013 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu (Post 832760)
Demar needs 20 games to figure out he's Tracey McGrady if you catch my drift.

The post mentioning the Pg not to be named is ridic.

What part of it? I'm no advocate of Jose. Great character but with him starting this team doesnt stand a chance of winning a chip. Or even going far in the playoffs. I just meant gay not being on this team. Not specifically Jose being back. That's just a side product of gay being gone. I dont know about you but I miss eddy d. Him and amir had a real nice thing going before he got traded. He was also showing some real progress offensively without giving up anything on the other end. That's solid

carp 11-20-2013 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pzabby (Post 832811)
What part of it? I'm no advocate of Jose. Great character but with him starting this team doesnt stand a chance of winning a chip. Or even going far in the playoffs. I just meant gay not being on this team. Not specifically Jose being back. That's just a side product of gay being gone. I dont know about you but I miss eddy d. Him and amir had a real nice thing going before he got traded. He was also showing some real progress offensively without giving up anything on the other end. That's solid

but he was giving up things on the other end.... there were times when those two couldn't hold their own against bruising players. Agree there were good things, but it wasn't all roses either. We lack a bit of size in the frontcourt even still. It's too bad Gray isn't a more useful player, despite his rugged beauty!

The Diamond Scorpion 11-20-2013 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pzabby (Post 832757)
The article made a nice point about how dd without gay has actually been great. His ts% up and the teams offr and defr both up. Gay has to go. I dont think this team needs to be blown up but this team right now, if it were as it were before the trade went down (I.e including all signings/trades made by Masai but keeping ed and caldy) would be much much better. And then Masai even has a bit of cap space to work with to sign or trade for the right fitting sf for this team. BC can go rot in hell!

Lowry/caldy (limited mins)/Augustine
Dd/ross/fields
Addition/fields
Amir/ed/hans
Jv/amir/hans

I agree with all of this. Lowry should have been the starter, but I think based on which ever PG being Lowry or Calderon was playing the best in each game should have gained more minutes for just that game and let the cycle continue on. So, if Lowry played better than Calderon throughout game 1 he would get between 33-35 mins with Caldy getting 13-15 mins. If the opposite happened the next game then just reverse the minutes. I would say the same for all players at every position. I would have loved to have had this roster over the current no passing, lazy wing defense (Demar and Rudy) roster, with a new coach like George Karl, Lionel Hollins, SVG, etc.

Roster would look like this:

Starting SF would have to have been a free agent signing like either Andrei Kirilenko 3yr, Michael Beasley 2yr team option, Corey Brewer 2yr team option, Earl Clark 2yr team
option, Martell Webster 2yr team option or 1yr contracts for guys like Wesley Johnson and Alan Anderson (as much as I would prefer to not have him)

Lowry/Calderon/Buycks (No Augustine, as we could save cap space)
Demar/Ross/Fields (I'll give Demar 1 more shot to improve defensively)
Free Agent Signing/Fields/Novak (Novak gets hot shooting, he plays more than Fields
Amir/Ed or Psycho T/Acy
JV/Ed or Psycho T/Gray:coolthumb:

moremilk 11-20-2013 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nyall (Post 832751)
what you should draw is that derozan and gay can not work together..


Gay's poor shooting has lasted ever since last season and has gotten worse now, as he's shooting far more than he did last year, with no signs of actually slowing down. This is no shooting slump, This is what Gay brings. He won't make any more shots than he's making now, what might change is that he'll stop taking as many shots, hopefully he's not a Raptor long enough for us to find out.

For DeRozan sake, I'm really hoping he doesn't become even more like gay.


wtf are you talking about? and are you actually comparing the raptors to miami?

Scoring 30 ppg, on 50 pct. shooting is not average. It is amazing. Lebron is the furthest thing from a poor shooter, and if you don't include his rookie year, he has always been efficient [by league standards]. Not to mention Lebron has hadat least 6 apg in every year he's been in the league. Lebron's worse season in the league, his rookie year, is better by FAR than Gay or Demar's best seasons in the league. Him not being a chucker like Gay is the reason why it worked in Miami. Lebron actually gets team mates involved, to Gay, team mates are the things that give the ball to him and stare while he plays iso, 20 times a game.

And I haven't even spoken about Wade yet.

you're trolling right? you have to be, you must be.. please tell me you are.

I have no clue where you're getting your data, but try the real world next time. Lebron's 3pt percentage in 2010 and 2011 was 33%, Wade is a career 29% 3pt shooter. I also have no clue why you mentioned his assists when what I said they were high usage and poor shooters (maybe I wasn't very clear with the word shooting, I thought it's obvious I was referring to long distance shooting since that's the main criticism at gay/demar). Also, field goal percentage has little correlation with shooting, unless you think Drummond is a vastly superior shooter to stephen curry ...

As far as the pace, don't get your comment since you didn't care to explain. Are you implying that miami likes slow ball and teams are trying to force them to play a fast paced style??? Every team that had success against them did it by slowing the game to limit turnovers and fast break opportunities and then pound the ball inside to take advantage of their lack of size and hopefully force them to move away from the small ball they prefer. As soon as they put a big man on the floor, miami's offense suffers dramatically.

niggles 11-20-2013 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moremilk (Post 832847)
I have no clue where you're getting your data, but try the real world next time. Lebron's 3pt percentage in 2010 and 2011 was 33%, Wade is a career 29% 3pt shooter. I also have no clue why you mentioned his assists when what I said they were high usage and poor shooters (maybe I wasn't very clear with the word shooting, I thought it's obvious I was referring to long distance shooting since that's the main criticism at gay/demar). Also, field goal percentage has little correlation with shooting, unless you think Drummond is a vastly superior shooter to stephen curry ...

As far as the pace, don't get your comment since you didn't care to explain. Are you implying that miami likes slow ball and teams are trying to force them to play a fast paced style??? Every team that had success against them did it by slowing the game to limit turnovers and fast break opportunities and then pound the ball inside to take advantage of their lack of size and hopefully force them to move away from the small ball they prefer. As soon as they put a big man on the floor, miami's offense suffers dramatically.

The main criticism with Gay/Demar is too much iso play, lack of ball movement and shot selection, NOT their % on long distance shooting.

RAPMAN 11-21-2013 10:09 AM

Its the early part of the season. Were are 5-7 with a tough early schedule. In the last four games, Demar is shooting 50.6% and getting more than 29 points per game.

Rudy has a low shooting percentage. But the team is better on defense when he is on the floor, he is leading the team in rebounds (7.7), blocks (1.1), and tied for steals (1.67). He is still a threat on offense, so he opens the floor for his teammates, and he does the little things to help the team win. This team is better when he is on the floor.

bjjs 11-21-2013 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAPMAN (Post 833192)
Its the early part of the season. Were are 5-7 with a tough early schedule. In the last four games, Demar is shooting 50.6% and getting more than 29 points per game.

Rudy has a low shooting percentage. But the team is better on defense when he is on the floor, he is leading the team in rebounds (7.7), blocks (1.1), and tied for steals (1.67). He is still a threat on offense, so he opens the floor for his teammates, and he does the little things to help the team win. This team is better when he is on the floor.

The team should be better every time he is on the floor because he is unbelievably gifted and clearly the most talented player on the team.

But they're not always better with Rudy on the floor. His undeniable talent gets him that 1.1 blocks per game and 1.67 steals per game, and fortunately for Rudy they don't track metrics like not getting back in transition and blow bys.

He quite often doesn't do the little things. Like the free-throw put back when it was still a tight game in the third quarter, Rudy is just standing there - no action, no reaction. That's typical Rudy, although last night those moments were at a minimum. Hopefully he can continue the good play for a decent stretch.

LOG 11-21-2013 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAPMAN (Post 833192)
Its the early part of the season. Were are 5-7 with a tough early schedule. In the last four games, Demar is shooting 50.6% and getting more than 29 points per game.

Rudy has a low shooting percentage. But the team is better on defense when he is on the floor, he is leading the team in rebounds (7.7), blocks (1.1), and tied for steals (1.67). He is still a threat on offense, so he opens the floor for his teammates, and he does the little things to help the team win. This team is better when he is on the floor.

Arron Afflalo in the last 3 games is averaging 30.3 points on 59.6%fg, while shooting 3's 68% (15from22)
Let's not jump the gun yet, doubt that Demar will average more than 21points (which would be amazing on good %)

LX 11-21-2013 11:29 AM

The main thing that gnaws at me about Rudy is his habit of flicking the switch. This team has consistently played good enough to build leads, and he consistently hits the off switch when that happens. Then it's time to see him take dumb shots, dribble between the legs, get called for traveling or stepping out of bounds while hotdogging. It drives me crazy. He needs to keep the intensity up and maximize possesions as long as he is out there. That means making the nice passes, taking shots when they come rather than forcing them, and doing some of the nice work defensively he's capable of. This team has a point differential above zero for the first time in years, and with the tough schedule that's great to see, but it could be even further into positive territory, along with the record, if rudy stopped opening the door for opposing teams to make runs. If he could develop some discipline throughout games i could start to like him, and his value would probably go up as well.

RAPMAN 11-21-2013 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOG (Post 833194)
Arron Afflalo in the last 3 games is averaging 30.3 points on 59.6%fg, while shooting 3's 68% (15from22)
Let's not jump the gun yet, doubt that Demar will average more than 21points (which would be amazing on good %)

Just pointing out Demar will not shoot below 40% for the season. Posters putting down Demar for his early struggles. He is a career FG 45% from the field, let the young player find his game and get out of his slump.

niggles 11-21-2013 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAPMAN (Post 833196)
Just pointing out Demar will not shoot below 40% for the season. Posters putting down Demar for his early struggles. He is a career FG 45% from the field, let the young player find his game and get out of his slump.

Defend the boy.


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