Two high usage wings are struggling to play together - Page 2
Old 11-21-2013, 12:07 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Just pointing out Demar will not shoot below 40% for the season. Posters putting down Demar for his early struggles. He is a career FG 45% from the field, let the young player find his game and get out of his slump.
I would be surprised if he would shoot below 40% for the season
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Old 11-21-2013, 12:14 PM   #22 (permalink)
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The main thing that gnaws at me about Rudy is his habit of flicking the switch. This team has consistently played good enough to build leads, and he consistently hits the off switch when that happens. Then it's time to see him take dumb shots, dribble between the legs, get called for traveling or stepping out of bounds while hotdogging. It drives me crazy. He needs to keep the intensity up and maximize possesions as long as he is out there. That means making the nice passes, taking shots when they come rather than forcing them, and doing some of the nice work defensively he's capable of. This team has a point differential above zero for the first time in years, and with the tough schedule that's great to see, but it could be even further into positive territory, along with the record, if rudy stopped opening the door for opposing teams to make runs. If he could develop some discipline throughout games i could start to like him, and his value would probably go up as well.
He would probably be top 15-20 player in the league if he would stop chucking, and play the way he played last night for the most part. But I don't see that happening..
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Old 11-21-2013, 12:52 PM   #23 (permalink)
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The biggest thing I took from last nights game wasn't about Demar's scoring, it's his unwillingness to do anything else. Free Ross, this kid can be special. Give Ross consistent minutes and touches and good things will happen. Let's not dump Demar, but he doesn't need 40+ minutes. Cut it back, get Ross his time, let's work on efficiency and effort across the board for all. It's not just about scoring thirty.

Also, JV needs to be a bigger part of our offensive plan. Let's please get away from this two headed ugliness. We beat Philly, without Thad Young. It's not that big of an accomplishment. Can we just focus on good basketball and not beating bad teams?
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:20 PM   #24 (permalink)
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The biggest thing I took from last nights game wasn't about Demar's scoring, it's his unwillingness to do anything else. Free Ross, this kid can be special. Give Ross consistent minutes and touches and good things will happen. Let's not dump Demar, but he doesn't need 40+ minutes. Cut it back, get Ross his time, let's work on efficiency and effort across the board for all. It's not just about scoring thirty.

Also, JV needs to be a bigger part of our offensive plan. Let's please get away from this two headed ugliness. We beat Philly, without Thad Young. It's not that big of an accomplishment. Can we just focus on good basketball and not beating bad teams?
I agree that JV should play a bigger part of the offense. Ross has been too inconsistent to get more minutes. His play has been sporadic. Derozan was averaging 17ppg in his sophmore year shooting .467 from the floor.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:31 PM   #25 (permalink)
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The main criticism with Gay/Demar is too much iso play, lack of ball movement and shot selection, NOT their % on long distance shooting.
that's now, but last season, right from the beginning the talk was about their 3pt shooting problems. I don't recall ISOs/shot selection being a major talking point until after this season has started. There were just some arguments about gay's shooting and whether it's injury or eye-related or some other reason.

In my opinion even now, ISOs are not an issue with demar/gay, they're a system problem - it's what the coach wants. Gay shown last night he can easily be a great distributors (have some doubts demar could do the same) - if we chose to play that way.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:33 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I agree that JV should play a bigger part of the offense. Ross has been too inconsistent to get more minutes. His play has been sporadic. Derozan was averaging 17ppg in his sophmore year shooting .467 from the floor.
a consistent role might help with Ross though... doesn't even have to be twenty minutes, just something consistent. Demar was given that his entire first three years, Ross hasn't been afforded anything even remotely similar. Seeing Ross last night, he looked like he had a little something special to offer with his energy and athleticism. This team needs to utilize that because the iso intense offense just drains on everyone.

Again, it's not about taking away from Demar, just more reducing the 40+ minutes and the unnecessary overreliance on both he and Gay. JV and Ross have a lot to add, let's not kill their motivation by leaving them to try and force their involvement.... that can't help anyone.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:33 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by LX View Post
The main thing that gnaws at me about Rudy is his habit of flicking the switch. This team has consistently played good enough to build leads, and he consistently hits the off switch when that happens. Then it's time to see him take dumb shots, dribble between the legs, get called for traveling or stepping out of bounds while hotdogging. It drives me crazy. He needs to keep the intensity up and maximize possesions as long as he is out there. That means making the nice passes, taking shots when they come rather than forcing them, and doing some of the nice work defensively he's capable of. This team has a point differential above zero for the first time in years, and with the tough schedule that's great to see, but it could be even further into positive territory, along with the record, if rudy stopped opening the door for opposing teams to make runs. If he could develop some discipline throughout games i could start to like him, and his value would probably go up as well.
I noticed that too, even last night, he was great distributing until the last 14-16 minutes when he went back to chucking. I'd still put this on casey's shoulder, he needs to be able to control such behaviour. The fact that gay is allowed to do it (perhaps even encouraged) is just sending the wrong signal to everybody else on the team.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:36 PM   #28 (permalink)
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that's now, but last season, right from the beginning the talk was about their 3pt shooting problems. I don't recall ISOs/shot selection being a major talking point until after this season has started. There were just some arguments about gay's shooting and whether it's injury or eye-related or some other reason.

In my opinion even now, ISOs are not an issue with demar/gay, they're a system problem - it's what the coach wants. Gay shown last night he can easily be a great distributors (have some doubts demar could do the same) - if we chose to play that way.
Agreed. Gay has the tools, but seems like he's not being given any direction other than 'light it up'. Same with Demar, though sans the other tools. Maybe that's an okay role for Demar though, but with Rudy we need him to do the other things because he can.
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:46 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Rudy nearly got a triple double 17 8 8, if he can continue to play like that.. passing more and taking better shots, then they two will play well together

but it's still a work in progress.. Rudy still doesn't trust his team mates that much
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Old 11-21-2013, 01:55 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Its pretty hard to hack on any of DD's game last night but one thing stood out - Gay 8 assists, DD Zero. Maybe its just Gay that has to move the ball more but as long as one of them does.
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Old 11-21-2013, 02:12 PM   #31 (permalink)
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start ross make demar a high scoring 6 man and feed JV


except to do that we need to fire casey:mu:
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Old 11-21-2013, 02:38 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Its pretty hard to hack on any of DD's game last night but one thing stood out - Gay 8 assists, DD Zero. Maybe its just Gay that has to move the ball more but as long as one of them does.
DD had a couple of beautiful passes that didn't get converted. One of them did lead to freethrows. And he looked to pass throughout the fourth quarter when Rudy was getting away from what had worked.
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Old 11-21-2013, 02:45 PM   #33 (permalink)
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DD had a couple of beautiful passes that didn't get converted. One of them did lead to freethrows. And he looked to pass throughout the fourth quarter when Rudy was getting away from what had worked.
everybody has passes that don't get coverted. How many assists does he average? How many rebounds? Truth is, he's becoming a really good scorer most of the time.... that is all. I'm starting to think that's okay, but it's far from ideal. He needs to pick up the D still.
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Old 11-21-2013, 02:50 PM   #34 (permalink)
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start ross make demar a high scoring 6 man and feed JV


except to do that we need to fire casey:mu:
So you are going to put a player who is struggling to be productive against the opponent's bench players, and put him against starting calibre players every night.
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Old 11-21-2013, 02:51 PM   #35 (permalink)
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The biggest thing I took from last nights game wasn't about Demar's scoring, it's his unwillingness to do anything else. Free Ross, this kid can be special. Give Ross consistent minutes and touches and good things will happen. Let's not dump Demar, but he doesn't need 40+ minutes. Cut it back, get Ross his time, let's work on efficiency and effort across the board for all. It's not just about scoring thirty.

Also, JV needs to be a bigger part of our offensive plan. Let's please get away from this two headed ugliness. We beat Philly, without Thad Young. It's not that big of an accomplishment. Can we just focus on good basketball and not beating bad teams?
Demar played solid defense, and he moved the ball well...he score 30 and his team played great. I'm not sure you're focused on good basketball, but rather the mythical unquantifiable boxscore that you've set as a measuring stick for Demar.

Yeah he had 0 assists. But he also could have dumped off a couple easy ones on 2on1 fastbreaks instead of laying them in himself. Hansbrough could have finished the gimme off Demar's around the back pass - that would have been three. Nevermind the solid defense he displayed on a number of possessions against Turner. He caused a few turnovers despite not recording a steal.

And Ross did play 32 minutes last night.

And JV once again did get outplayed and also had a couple of really ugly forced post moves. The worst thing we could do to JV is treat him like Bargnani and throw him the rock like he is entitled to it without him earning his stripes first.
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Old 11-21-2013, 02:55 PM   #36 (permalink)
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everybody has passes that don't get coverted. How many assists does he average? How many rebounds? Truth is, he's becoming a really good scorer most of the time.... that is all. I'm starting to think that's okay, but it's far from ideal. He needs to pick up the D still.
He played good D, he rebounded. If he can be a consistent scorer that chips in with other aspects then is that really an issue? This thread is about the two wings supposedly struggling to play together. If Rudy is more of a facilitator and DeMar plays aggressively as a scorer that gets to the line, then the struggle is not so much of a struggle. It could even become pretty close to ideal.

I know everyone has passes that don't get converted. Demar had two very nice passes, and one of them lead to freethrows, which means he provided more than his own scoring, even if it doesn't show up in the boxscore. That goes for the ball movement he initiated throughout the fourth quarter when he could have just gone for a career high in points.

Funny how much you loved Barbosa.
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Old 11-21-2013, 02:57 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Demar played solid defense, and he moved the ball well...he score 30 and his team played great. I'm not sure you're focused on good basketball, but rather the mythical unquantifiable boxscore that you've set as a measuring stick for Demar.

Yeah he had 0 assists. But he also could have dumped off a couple easy ones on 2on1 fastbreaks instead of laying them in himself. Hansbrough could have finished the gimme off Demar's around the back pass - that would have been three. Nevermind the solid defense he displayed on a number of possessions against Turner. He caused a few turnovers despite not recording a steal.

And Ross did play 32 minutes last night.

And JV once again did get outplayed and also had a couple of really ugly forced post moves. The worst thing we could do to JV is treat him like Bargnani and throw him the rock like he is entitled to it without him earning his stripes first.

Yeah, Ross played 32 mins, and it was good.... so let's do that again. Not sure you're focused on what I'm saying instead of reading what you wish I was saying.

Every player has passes that don't get converted, every player forces plays that don't end up being turnovers. Let's not look at one instant and try to suggest that it happens any more frequently.

Yeah, let's not involve JV any more.... let's just keep beating bad teams and losing to good ones because we're too focused on what worked against Philly.
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Old 11-21-2013, 02:58 PM   #38 (permalink)
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He played good D, he rebounded. If he can be a consistent scorer that chips in with other aspects then is that really an issue? This thread is about the two wings supposedly struggling to play together. If Rudy is more of a facilitator and DeMar plays aggressively as a scorer that gets to the line, then the struggle is not so much of a struggle. It could even become pretty close to ideal.

I know everyone has passes that don't get converted. Demar had two very nice passes, and one of them lead to freethrows, which means he provided more than his own scoring, even if it doesn't show up in the boxscore. That goes for the ball movement he initiated throughout the fourth quarter when he could have just gone for a career high in points.

Funny how much you loved Barbosa.
Are you implying Demar is our new Barbosa?
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Old 11-21-2013, 03:00 PM   #39 (permalink)
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DD had a couple of beautiful passes that didn't get converted. One of them did lead to freethrows. And he looked to pass throughout the fourth quarter when Rudy was getting away from what had worked.
And when you're shooting that well and driving so easy, there is little reason for him to pass TBH. Maybe Casey should be noting who the better defender is on the opposition out of the SG and SF and put a leash on one of them accordingly.

And I would be all for Starting Anyone but DD and I think it makes sense. He played a ton of minutes last night but I like when he stays out with the bench and I really did like him and Ross together for small stretches.

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Old 11-21-2013, 03:00 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Yeah, Ross played 32 mins, and it was good.... so let's do that again. Not sure you're focused on what I'm saying instead of reading what you wish I was saying.

Every player has passes that don't get converted, every player forces plays that don't end up being turnovers. Let's not look at one instant and try to suggest that it happens any more frequently.

Yeah, let's not involve JV any more.... let's just keep beating bad teams and losing to good ones because we're too focused on what worked against Philly.
Yeah..Ross played 32, Demar 38. What's the problem? The minutes are clearly there for Ross to take. He's competing with Novak and Fields, not Demar.

I'm atleast looking at the game rather than the boxscore, but therein lies the problem for some; the boxscore is much easier to read then the game itself.

JV needs to get better at converting his chances as they come in the flow of the game. He gets his posts ups. He gets more than a lot of centers in the league. I don't see how it would be a good thing to force it down there after he throws up a couple bricks from two feet out, or miss the rim completely a few games in a row now.


This all assuming you're not trying to lose, which like you said, were' talking about good basketball.

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