Is Turkoglu's performance due to the weak guard play?
Old 03-26-2010, 10:38 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Arrow Is Turkoglu's performance due to the weak guard play?

Quite a long piece, so check it out for yourself as I only quoted the last bit of the article. Interesting analysis for all you stats buffs.

Quote:
I believe this is the most important issue for the Raptors going forward. As mentioned at the outset, the Raptors are going to win or lose with Turkoglu as their small forward, so it behooves them (don't know the last time I used "behoove" in a sentence) to find effective 5-man combinations that include him.


So ultimately, if the Raptors continue to throw out combinations they should know aren't effective, then there's nothing you can say other than Turkoglu's performance has been a failure of coaching and management. There are combinations (Belinelli, Wright) where Turkoglu has proven to be effective, and yet they are only being used sparingly (29% of the time). Conversely, there are combinations where Turkoglu has proven to be ineffective (with DeRozan or Weems), and yet, those combinations are still used more than half of the time. How can that not be considered a failure of coaching?


One other question to consider is this: Why? Why is Turkoglu effective with Wright & Belinelli, and not Weems and DeRozan? Here's one easy possible answer:


3PT FG / 3PT %
Wright & Belinelli: 102 / 36%
Weems & DeRozan: 5 / 18%


Here's another possible answer:


ASSISTS PER 36 MINUTES
Wright & Belinelli: 4.9
Weems & DeRozan: 3.8


That is telling because neither Wright or Belinelli are even considered playmakers, and yet they still have a noticeable edge in assists. I bring the assists up along with the three-pointers because I think there's an obvious difference between the two pairs. Wright & Belinelli have relatively complete games offensively. They can put the ball on the floor, they can make a pass that leads to a bucket... they have relatively high basketball IQs. Weems & DeRozan have very limited games offensively. They can take an open 15-footer, but they don't really understand how to work within an offence, they have low basketball IQs. They get by on athletic ability.


If you look at Turkoglu's last couple seasons in Orlando, you'd see that he was most (and very) effective when Keith Bogans was on the floor as the shooting guard. Bogans is like a Belinelli or Wright... he can spread the floor (with his shooting), and he has a high basketball IQ... he was known for making little plays to help the offence.


Anyways, as I said, I believe this data shows there are pieces available on this roster to make the team and Turkoglu effective. It's just a matter of whether management and coaching can figure it out.
LINK - T.Jose Caldeford
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Old 03-26-2010, 10:53 AM   #2 (permalink)
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This all may be true but there's more to it then just who's at the 2 guard imo. We've had the pg debate already (Turk and Banks anyone?) and maybe this is legit, or pointless, just like that one, but it doesn't take away from a lot of things that (may) affect his game regardless of who he's out on the floor with.

fatigue from last year/summer? adjusting to new team, new role. perhaps disappointment about that. three injuries didn't help the rhythm, the controversy in the media and pressure probably doesn't help either, etc.

The key thing in his stat difference from last season to this one is imo the usage drop (-5%).

Personally, despite that the debate is passť, I think it is weird that he hasn't been more involved on the offensive end, and got assigned the 'spot up shooter' role. Especially in the light of his contract. If he wasn't signed to get a big role on the team then why the big bucks?
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Old 03-26-2010, 10:58 AM   #3 (permalink)
is.....

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Well if he needs to have more tallent around him just to preform then why the hell did we bring him in, in the first place. ITs like

Bosh wants more tallen - Bring in terk now terk needs more tallent - where does it stop.

Really, turk needs to handle the ball more then he is. HE really flourished last year beucase he WAS the teams point guard pretty much.
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Old 03-26-2010, 11:05 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Why not give him a chance to literally play point guard on the offensive end?

Let him create something on every half court set.

When Jose is on the floor with him, stick him in the corner so he can hit the corner three....and tell him to fkn MAKE IT like he did 2 years ago consistently!
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Old 03-26-2010, 11:55 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Bring Turk in off the bench. Put Amir Johnson in the starting lineup at power forward. Show Amir we want him back. Amir and Chris are the only two Raptors who have been bright spots this year. Maybe i might add Jack to that mix. We absolutely have to sign Amir in the off season.

Trade Turk in the off season for anything possible. Keeping Turk and watching Amir go would be an absolute catastrophe for the organization. This team is way too slow and unathletic with both Turk and Andrea on the floor as starters. Not to mention the defence in our starting unit is absolutely horrendous when Turk is added to the mix.
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Old 03-26-2010, 12:17 PM   #6 (permalink)
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excuses, excuses, excuses....
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Old 03-26-2010, 01:12 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A00715890 View Post
excuses, excuses, excuses....
Sure, ignore imperical evidence in favour of biased opinion. Way to go
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Old 03-26-2010, 01:34 PM   #8 (permalink)
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so how about they move hedo to the bench so he can plays with these shooters?

dont need any excuses, i see what a terrible player he is every time he steps on the court. He's always out of breath, moves like a slug, misses alot, and really doesn't do anything from a passing persepctive that jose and jack can't. Its on hedo if he's playing shitty(playing like himself if you ask me), its not that fact that he plays with other athletic wings because you need athletic wings to compensate when your SF moves like a slug.
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Old 03-26-2010, 02:23 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I heard from somewhere that Hedo isn't playing that good this year cause he doesn't have howard and lewis stretching the defense more. So not only gurafd play but also the center position. Yes Bosh gets double teamed but when you can't have more than 2 people that can shoot from the outside in a consistent basis you get a .500 team
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Old 03-26-2010, 06:44 PM   #10 (permalink)
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No! He just sucks
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Old 03-26-2010, 07:22 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Am I the only one who wonders how the line up below would do?:

1. Banks
2. Wright
3. Turk
4. Bosh
5. Bargs

The reason is we have 2 guys who are more about defence at 1 and 2 and Turk could handle the ball more, thus no pouting, thus maybe play some defence.

But we can't find that out can we? This is a business with pay cheque size and draft number politics.
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Old 03-27-2010, 05:03 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammo View Post
Am I the only one who wonders how the line up below would do?:

1. Banks
2. Wright
3. Turk
4. Bosh
5. Bargs
this could work ok in some matchup situations primarly vs half court teams but this is not good starting lineup generally
runnig teams will kill us

banks will use his fouls very quickly if he's faced against speedy guards
turk will have more assists but it will probably be balanced back with more turnovers and subsequently even more fastbreak pts and more fouls for banks and wright
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Old 03-27-2010, 06:33 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I know only one thing Hedo+Jose won't work.One of them MUST go
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Old 03-27-2010, 06:51 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sick, Wicked and Nasty! View Post
Sure, ignore imperical evidence in favour of biased opinion. Way to go
ya wtf was i thinking? i feel soo stupid...its caldy, jack, dd and wright that are making hedo look like shit...

get fucking real....he is being outplayed by a guy that spent most of last season in the d league....
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Old 03-27-2010, 07:03 PM   #15 (permalink)
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He'd be more effective playing with Kobe as SG. This is a fabricated article. You are more effective if you play with better people on the floor. Simple.
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Old 03-27-2010, 10:27 PM   #16 (permalink)
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IMHO - if Turk just give a little effort, we would not be shiting on him1
He IS a good player - but he does not show it.
The slug comparision is close, the negative body language on the court escape most TV viewers and paints himself as a primadonna. The other players have gave up on him. He will not last long. There is the feeling that he is playing to be showcased for trading come summer time. but then, who will take him!?
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Old 03-28-2010, 09:34 AM   #17 (permalink)
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my last hope for hedo is that he will step up his game come playoff time (if we make it that is). i remember that kapono a few years ago vs. orlando was probably our most consistent player in the series. maybe hedo could do the same?
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Old 03-28-2010, 09:50 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Hedo just doesn't have a good go to move. It's all one foot fadeways in the midrange, and flopping going to the net leaving fate in the hands of the officials.

His most consistant offense is shooting the three ball, so all teams have to do is pressure him on the arc.

And his passing off the pick and roll is incredibly overrated. If anything he's been sub-par in that area. Over-penetrating and forcing passes from bad positioning.

When he doesn't force his game and he plays within himself, he is what he doesn't want to be, which is a spot up shooter. But as he gets older, that's what he'll have to accept being.

He should just work on his strength so he can be an undersized 4 who can be an average defender in the post and spread the defense on the other end.

Scoring on quicker threes, and defending them, It's only going to get harder for him every year.


And he still has 40+ million dollars to earn.
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Old 03-28-2010, 02:16 PM   #19 (permalink)
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its cause before D.Howard created opportunities for him to make open layups and shots but now he has to create his own shots.
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